Looks As If Turkey Is Going Down The Shitter, Too

[Anomalocaris]

Honestly, I wouldn't know "Radiohead" if I fell over them.  But I already like them better than these muslim pricks.

Thanks to Erdogan, Turkey goes down the shitter for quite some time now. Apart from him silencing every national opposition, he first sponsored the Islamists and then declared war on them - along with the Kurds. The only really motivated and half secular opposition to Isis in Iraq and Syria. But you know, one of our allies. It's not as if that was the first shithead to be supported, until it hits the fan.

I think this is at least partially in exploitation of the emotional vulnerability and resentment resulting from turkey being spurned by the EU.

I suspect EU position the in world would be much stronger today, and would be in a position to use an assimilated turkey as a tool for own policy goals in the near east, as oppose to its position in the Middle East being dictated to it by an external turkey which has now has its own neoottoman objectives in contrary to European interests, if it had absorbed and assimilated turkey about 8-10 years ago, when turkey wanted to be absorbed and assimilated but Europe felt turkey was too middleeastern.

[Minimalist]

Thanks to Erdogan, Turkey goes down the shitter for quite some time now.

Agreed.  But he is hardly the first tin horn dictator that we have embraced.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Seems clear to me that there were Muslims listening to Radiohead, not just Muslims attacking the listeners.

If a religion will attack you for not adhering to their ideals the fact of whether they attack people of their own religion or another religion, for not adhering to their ideals, is immaterial .... there is something wrong with that religious ideal ...

... or its interpretation by some of its members ...

[mralstoner]

If Turkey were still alive, it would have had another secular/Kemalist military coup long ago, when Erdogan started his "return to Ottomans" bullsh*t. But Erdogan fabricated charges against a lot of military and journalists (in the Ergenekon case) and locked a lot of them up. Seems too late now. Turkey, like a lot of Muslim countries, is reverting to type.

[madog]

If a religion will attack you for not adhering to their ideals the fact of whether they attack people of their own religion or another religion, for not adhering to their ideals, is immaterial .... there is something wrong with that religious ideal ...

... or its interpretation by some of its members ...

All religion is interpretations ... discussing those ideals is not attacking those with the same religion ...

I couldn't see the relevance of the fact that the victims were Muslim?

---

Seems clear to me that there were Muslims listening to Radiohead, not just Muslims attacking the listeners.

Pretty good guess. But some people tend to not look at the obvious.

If a religion will attack you for not adhering to their ideals the fact of whether they attack people of their own religion or another religion, for not adhering to their ideals, is immaterial .... there is something wrong with that religious ideal ...

Is that any different with any radical religious believes? Bombing or shooting up abortion clinics anyone? Spitting on indecently dressed little girls in Jerusalem anyone? Not respecting the Shabbes anyone?

No, but  I posted the above because it was pointed out the victims were Muslims .... The fact that the doctor doing the abortion was a Christian has no relevance to the ideals of the Christians that did the attack ... They would have still attacked the doctor if he was Muslim ....

[Thumpalumpacus]

Madog, the relevance is that Islamophobics brushes all Muslims with the tar of the extremists.

The difference between Christianity and Islam is not particularly in deity, somewhat in doctrine, but mostly in the fact that Christianity has been defanged, while Islam hasn't. An Islamophobe who bases his feelings on scripture should rightly display the same bigotry against Christianity. An Islamophobe who bases his criticisms on actions should rightlly base his feelings on the actions of a small minority of Muslims.

[Regina]

I don't like the term "Islamophobia" because it stigmatises criticism against the religion itself, which is sorely needed at this point in time. It's also one of those generic ad hominem silencer buzzwords (same with "Homophobia" and "transphobia") that's just fashionable to throw around now instead of making a real argument. "Anti-Muslim sentiment" would be better for discrimination against Muslims.

I feel like this "double standard" regarding Islam and Christianity goes both ways depending on whether you're listening to the Left wing or the Right wing. Everyone seems to have a different opinion, there's some who love Christianity while bashing Islam, and there's also some who knock Christianity and then defend Islam whatever it's adherents do. It's not a one-sided thing. If there's any "double standard" or extra attention Islam gets, it's because Islam has absolutely unrivaled power compared to any other religion today (even Christianity) and the lack of secularism within a lot of "Islamic societies" is a very real cause for concern.

[madog]

Madog, the relevance is that Islamophobics brushes all Muslims with the tar of the extremists.

The difference between Christianity and Islam is not particularly in deity, somewhat in doctrine, but mostly in the fact that Christianity has been defanged, while Islam hasn't. An Islamophobe who bases his feelings on scripture should rightly display the same bigotry against Christianity. An Islamophobe who bases his criticisms on actions should rightlly base his feelings on the actions of a small minority of Muslims.

As a very liberal person all my life I am horrified that we don't stand up for liberal Muslims.

I Talk about how wrong homophobia, sexism, etc, etc, is in the world, but some want to exclude Islam from the discussion, we are letting our fellow man down .....

The problems with Islam are the same as nearly every other religion, terrorism is a tiny part .... Why should a gay, female, etc, etc Muslim suffer from silence of the liberals when Islam is decades/centuries behind a lot of western religions?

Its as if liberalism has gone mad .... Protecting the theocracy and not the victims, which are by and large Muslims 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I don't like the term "Islamophobia" because it stigmatises criticism against the religion itself, which is sorely needed at this point in time. It's also one of those generic ad hominem silencer buzzwords (same with "Homophobia" and "transphobia") that's just fashionable to throw around now instead of making a real argument. "Anti-Muslim sentiment" would be better for discrimination against Muslims.

I feel like this "double standard" regarding Islam and Christianity goes both ways depending on whether you're listening to the Left wing or the Right wing. Everyone seems to have a different opinion, there's some who love Christianity while bashing Islam, and there's also some who knock Christianity and then defend Islam whatever it's adherents do. It's not a one-sided thing. If there's any "double standard" or extra attention Islam gets, it's because Islam has absolutely unrivaled power compared to any other religion today (even Christianity) and the lack of secularism within a lot of "Islamic societies" is a very real cause for concern.

I have no problem with a rational fear of or caution towards Muslim extremism, nor criticizing it -- as I myself do. It is when the violence of a small proportion of Muslims is used to justify bigotry against all of them that I start seeing irrationality and yes, bigotry.

Remember, there is a Presidential candidate here in America garnering wide support for doing exactly that.

I certainly don't want to "shut down" discussion myself ... but I damned well believe in calling a spade a spade.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Madog, the relevance is that Islamophobics brushes all Muslims with the tar of the extremists.

The difference between Christianity and Islam is not particularly in deity, somewhat in doctrine, but mostly in the fact that Christianity has been defanged, while Islam hasn't. An Islamophobe who bases his feelings on scripture should rightly display the same bigotry against Christianity. An Islamophobe who bases his criticisms on actions should rightlly base his feelings on the actions of a small minority of Muslims.

As a very liberal person all my life I am horrified that we don't stand up for liberal Muslims.

I Talk about how wrong homophobia, sexism, etc, etc, is in the world, but some want to exclude Islam from the discussion, we are letting our fellow man down .....

The problems with Islam are the same as nearly every other religion, terrorism is a tiny part .... Why should a gay, female, etc, etc Muslim suffer from silence of the liberals when Islam is decades/centuries behind a lot of western religions?

Its as if liberalism has gone mad .... Protecting the theocracy and not the victims, which are by and large Muslims 

I hear you. I hate broad-brushes. They are inherently unfair and taken to their logical conclusions lead to discrimination and even barbarity.