If Life is Meaningless Anyway, then What's Wrong with Religion?

[robvalue]

"If life is meaningless..." is itself a meaningless condition. Life is objectively meaningless, but it is subjectively meaningful. You need to pick one, and in either case, the condition is trivially true or false.

Irrational beliefs in themselves aren't inherently harmful. But beliefs inform actions. And a lot of harm usually goes on regarding religions. If the excuse is that "everything is meaningless anyway", then you've discarded everything on a meaningless condition.

Being under the spell of religion seems very similar to being drunk or on drugs. Sure, it can help you cope better. But you're out of step with reality, will make suboptimal decisions and may be a danger to yourself or others. If you indoctrinate children, it's like getting them hooked on drugs ASAP. If you treat people badly for religious reasons, it's like being a violent alcoholic.

There are many ways to cope with reality. I don't think religion is the best one. But really, the point is moot, because belief is not a choice. If you believe in a religion, then you do. The truth of the belief isn't dependent on the value or outcome of the belief.

Personally, even if I believed a religion was "true", I'd still take no part in it. I find them irrelevant and immoral, on the whole.

[ApeNotKillApe]

This is personal bias showing, but I think of the talking heads of the creationist movement as the most profound nihilists I know; when confronted with the evidence, deny all reason and propogate your own ill-founded self-satisfying version of the truth, use any dishonest means to make sure it's the only truth with total selfish disregard for everything humankind has built.

[InquiringMind]

"If life is meaningless..." is itself a meaningless condition. Life is objectively meaningless, but it is subjectively meaningful. You need to pick one, and in either case, the condition is trivially true or false.

I'm seeing the difference between subjective meaning and objective meaning.  That's a key point that I hadn't considered before this discussion.

[Aroura]

What prevents you from establishing your own meaning?

If the truth is that life is meaningless, then any meaning I assign to life is going to be fictional.  So if I do establish my own fictional meaning in life (and it will inevitably be fictional) then why is that more noble and enlightened than someone whose meaning comes from a fictional traditional religion, like Islam or Christianity?

---

Wrong is decidedly worse than meaningless.

If life is meaningless, they why does being right or wrong matter?

I think I understand, as I'm going through the same existential crisis.

You can give your LIFE it's own meaning, but the fact of death and the lack of an afterlife, as well as the realization that everyone you affect, and most likely all life on earth will eventually cease to exist kind of robs it of any long term meaning.

I'm trying to go with: there's nothing I can do to change any of that, so I may as well enjoy this brief bit of meaninglessNess I've got, and make others as nice as I can while I'm at it.

Life just keeps going, so do your best to live it, and good luck.

[robvalue]

"If life is meaningless..." is itself a meaningless condition. Life is objectively meaningless, but it is subjectively meaningful. You need to pick one, and in either case, the condition is trivially true or false.

I'm seeing the difference between subjective meaning and objective meaning.  That's a key point that I hadn't considered before this discussion.

Awesome

"Meaning" is an abstract valuation, and is user dependent. The same thing can have different meanings to different people, and all those meanings are as valid as each other. Someone, even a god, could tell me what the "meaning" of my life is, but that's just a meaning they have assigned. I can reject it and assign my own.

If we're instead talking about more concrete cause and effect, that's entirely different. My life may have been set up so that it causes various outcomes external to this reality depending on what I do. I wouldn't call this meaning though, any more than the meaning of a calculator is to add up numbers. We can measure and describe things that actually happen and deduce causal links, or we can apply our own abstract valuations. The first is generally objective once a method is agreed, the second is always subjective. For example, morality works the same way. You can't measure morality without first imposing your own subjective standard, which is then useless to anyone who doesn't agree with it.

How to cope with life? This is it. This is all you'll ever get. This is all anyone will get. You've found this out now, while you still have time, rather than coasting through it in a haze of delusion and missing it. This is everything, so make the most of it. Craft your own meaning. To me, I want to make the world a better place, help other people and animals enjoy their one and only existence, and enjoy mine along the way.

[Edwardo Piet]

Fuck meaning, find purpose.

[LadyForCamus]

Jor, do you mind me asking, are you in school?  (for some reason I thought you were.). Do you work?   Are you close with family members at all?  You sound awfully lonely.  [emoji45]

No, I'm not in school, I don't work, and I'm not close to family. I don't really identify with a feeling of loneliness, but maybe I am.

Perhaps companionship is one of those things that you don't recognize you are missing until you have it, and it's taken away. Being a stay-at home-mom (and an introvert) can be isolating at times and I've noticed that the less I see people, the less I want to see people, but ultimately I feel worse. Maybe it would be helpful for you to try out one of those book clubs you were talking about again. Or maybe there is an 'Atheists Meet' type of IRL group in your area that you could engage in?

[Excited Penguin]

No, I'm not in school, I don't work, and I'm not close to family.  I don't really identify with a feeling of loneliness, but maybe I am.

Perhaps companionship is one of those things that you don't recognize you are missing until you have it, and it's taken away.  Being a stay-at home-mom (and an introvert) can be isolating at times and I've noticed that the less I see people, the less I want to see people, but ultimately I feel worse.  Maybe it would be helpful for you to try out one of those book clubs you were talking about again.  Or maybe there is an 'Atheists Meet' type of IRL group in your area that you could engage in?

LFC, don't you feel like it's none of our business what she does with her own life? I mean she sounds like a private enough person as it is. Let her be.

[FatAndFaithless]

Perhaps companionship is one of those things that you don't recognize you are missing until you have it, and it's taken away.  Being a stay-at home-mom (and an introvert) can be isolating at times and I've noticed that the less I see people, the less I want to see people, but ultimately I feel worse.  Maybe it would be helpful for you to try out one of those book clubs you were talking about again.  Or maybe there is an 'Atheists Meet' type of IRL group in your area that you could engage in?

LFC, don't you feel like it's none of our business what she does with her own life? I mean she sounds like a private enough person as it is. Let her be.

She's just offering advice...

[Banjo]

Normally I am a pretty happy go lucky person. Today however follows some hard times.
Today do I believe life itself has meaning? No.

When the "meaning of life" is to kill and consume other beings, get killed in tsunamis etc. There is no meaning. We are very small pieces of dust in this universe.

However, this is not to say that individual meaning does not exist. For most people it is temporary. For others such as Sartre, the only way to really be remembered is to leave something of worth behind.

Life is, as they say, "what you make it".