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To those who believe Bible is not literal...
#11
RE: To those who believe Bible is not literal...
(August 29, 2010 at 2:02 am)annatar Wrote: I have few questions to you,

First of all where is in the bible said that we should not take its words literal? Or where did you get this authority?
The Bible itself, as fr0do pointed out, intends itself to be read and pondered on very thoroughly. So you are supposed to think about what you've read in the Bible and decide what you believe about it afterwards.

As well, the Bible is primarily a book about the spiritual sense ofthings and the ways in which God works. It is meant as a metaphorical translation of the literal way in which God works. It describes, most essentially; the way humanity acts in relation to the spirit, in relation to God, and in relation to each other. Think of the natural 'Scientific Laws' and understand that the things in the Bible are similar, in that they are a written down translation of the 'Laws of Humanity and the Spirit', so to speak.

Whose authority do I get that from? Well, the...Bible. It is implied in the book itself that it is meant to be taken as such.

Quote:Second, Why god sent something that much vague to people? Didn't he knew that people "might" misunderstood him for 2000 years (and counting for some)?

What would you have prefered He send? of course He knew it could be misinterpreted, but that is because it was something He created through man, and man is falliable. God did not 'send' the Bible, He had men who understood Him better than most create it for Him.

On that note, the Bible is one of the most comprehensive and best-written books on the subject of God, and is the main reason I choose Christianity over some other, equally valuable religion. Withou tthe Bible, a whole lot of peopel would know a whole lot less about God.

Quote:Third, why did he send it as figure of speech? We are capable of(and better at) understanding literal commands either. Wouldn't it be more effective? Did god likes mind games?
Again, the idea is to make you think. The Bible itself says this. If you aren't thinking about God, what is the point in declaring belief in God?


Quote:Fourth, what will happen to people (like me) who would get the wrong message?
That's entirely up to you, dude.


Quote:Fifth, why does this illiteral stories such as noah's ark, book of job or story of lot constantly had to include blood and violence? Wouldn't that give the impression of "god loves violence and we should kill people for him?" I think bugs bunny style stories would be better...(Wabbits!)
I don't know. Maybe it was just because of the environment and time that the author's grew up in. Regardless of the violence, the stories serve their purpose well.

Quote:Sixth, Is hell illiteral too? What will happen to innocent unbelievers? Are they going to be tortured enternally?
Heaven and Hell, as fr0do said, are more about the now. Heaven and Hell are both spiritual states of mind. The pain of Hell is described as being quite terrible in the Bible, and the state of mind which this refers to is in fact quite terrible. It even transcends death.

Quote:And the last, can you give reasonable answers to those questions above?

I suspect that my answers will not be sufficient for you, but yes, I can. Smile
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#12
RE: To those who believe Bible is not literal...
The history of Christianity is the history of moving goalposts. Behind the times, reluctantly, cautiously, begrudgingly, it must in order to lessen the monstrosities it has perpetuated and justified over the centuries, being dragged kicking and screaming, now into the 21st century.

Slavery, for instance. It took the Quakers in the 1700s to finally even question the practice. Nowadays, there would be very few Christians who would claim slavery is fine (either that or slavery is re-defined so that it wasn't so bad). Usually the tack is those people weren't "real" Christians. Or that Christians never claimed to be perfect. Always moving goalposts, always re-defining terms, anything but to say they were simply f*ing wrong. Anything but that.

Same with the origins of life, the position of the earth in relation to the sun, or that the earth is not flat. Of course, primitive peoples would not have known this anyway. Play semantic games about a god who is "beyond being"-- abstract, but at least no one seems to get hurt, right? But Christians threatened with violence those who didn't play along. And then add slavery, genocide, the treatment of women, homosexuality, animal sacrifice, etc. ... oh, all that goalpost moving gets awfully tiring.

Assuming that humanity survives into the next century, and Christianity with it, they will point back at Christians today as well and say "Oh, well, they weren't true Christians" like so much compost. And on it goes...
“Society is not a disease, it is a disaster. What a stupid miracle that one can live in it.” ~ E.M. Cioran
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#13
RE: To those who believe Bible is not literal...
Quote:Assuming that humanity survives into the next century, and Christianity with it, they will point back at Christians today as well and say "Oh, well, they weren't true Christians" like so much compost. And on it goes...
We wont survive with muslims following 1000 years behind christians and christians trying to go back not forward.(well I have seen Jesus Camp and I think they are raising their own al-kaida)
If iran or one of the fanatic terorist organizations get nuclear bombs history will see the last self-fulfiling prophecy...

Frodo!!!!
"Is it fair to couse thousands of death just to tell your words as poems????? Yes or No please!"
Why dont you answer this question isn't it clear enough? C'moon!!!
Quote:Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends.

Gandalf The Gray.
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#14
RE: To those who believe Bible is not literal...
@Entropist- Regurgitated verbal vomit that's been beaten to death and back again.

The point of Christianity is growth and expasion in one's understanding and knowledge. As humanity has progressed, we have come to know and understand things far better than we did in ancient times, and there is nothing wrong with that. We have reached a point where our knowledge is so great that we have a far better understanding of the universe than ever before. Technology is on the rise at speeds no one could have thought possible.

This is called progress. Expansion. Not only is it a basic tenant of life itself, but it is thoroughly encouraged by Christianity. There is no 'moving' of 'goalposts.' If that's what you call growth, then I find it ironic that you call yourself 'Entropist.' Entropy is change.
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#15
RE: To those who believe Bible is not literal...
(August 29, 2010 at 9:51 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Your knowledge and understanding is indeed deeply lacking anna.

anna Wrote:okay then Let me give you an example, lets say I was a knight from the middle age who served to ecclesiastical court. And I killed many woman becouse I thougth they were witch. But I did this just for the god. What will happen to me?
You were mistaken in thinking that you were doing the will of God, because it clearly goes against Christ's teachings. How did you come to convince yourself of this fallacy? The question of your innocence lies there.
It is your rationality what is lacking frodo.
Okay right i was mistaken But It was him who killed every living thing just becouse they are believe in different gods?(noah's ark) I thought you want me to kill everyone who doesnt believe in him!
And why don't you answer my post properly??? I asked simple question answer is yes or no tell me which is it???

Quote:Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends.

Gandalf The Gray.
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#16
RE: To those who believe Bible is not literal...
Your question was not a yes or no one, anna. It was 'What will happen to me?(Under the given circumstances of the knight you made mention of)" fr0do answered that question quite plainly.
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#17
RE: To those who believe Bible is not literal...
(August 29, 2010 at 10:40 am)Watson Wrote: This is called progress. Expansion. Not only is it a basic tenant of life itself, but it is thoroughly encouraged by Christianity. There is no 'moving' of 'goalposts.'

You missed my point. I said its bad enough with misunderstandings of science (never mind that threats were made to those who made such discoveries). As I said earlier, I can understand that. Primitive people (even if they were all atheist) would have to stumble on these things over time. But that slavery, genocide, misogyny and other things were done in the name of a god and are justified by Christians today is disgusting (whether in the Bible or within the history of Christianity).

It is no more different than those communists outside the Soviet Union who came up with all sorts of excuses for what Stalin was doing, even though it went against everything they believed. And its just as disgusting. That involved lots of goalpost moving in the same way. Why would someone need to defend such monstrosities?

It would be refreshing to see a Christian say that the genocides and other awful things of the Bible are morally repugnant (I have at least met some Jews, even a rabbi!-- who has said as much). But no, since their god can do no wrong, its OK. And you can't do that without getting tied up in semantic knots, redefining things that in the ordinary, everyday world would never fly.
“Society is not a disease, it is a disaster. What a stupid miracle that one can live in it.” ~ E.M. Cioran
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#18
RE: To those who believe Bible is not literal...
I did not miss your point at all, Entropist. Nor did I confirm myself as one who justifies monstrosities in the name of God. No, I abhor the idea of it, in all acuality. However, I am also not calling those Christians who attempt to justify these things as not being 'real' Christians. They are as real in their Christianity as I am in mine. They simply have not progressed to a point where they are willing to admit what was done in the name of God was not truly in the name of God.

Again, we go back to growth and expansion. These things are not the moving of goalposts, they are a basic, fundamental principle of life- and of Christianity, as well.
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#19
RE: To those who believe Bible is not literal...
No my question is clear But you dont want to hear the answer.
Anyone with conscience will say no to that question.
and here your excuses for it, Computer
Quote:What would you have prefered He send? of course He knew it could be misinterpreted, but that is because it was something He created through man, and man is falliable. God did not 'send' the Bible, He had men who understood Him better than most create it for Him.
First of all he could really send it.Or he could speak to the whole world (he is all powerful after all)
and if those man were the ones who understood him better than most Why they didn't just wrote the main points instead of making stories that could be anything and mostly bad things! You guys are working really hard to change that stories into something good. And it makes them more ridiculous than its literal meaning..
Just listen to yourseves guys Does your arguments really makes any sense to you!!!???

And by the way you claim that you understand god better than creators of bible. Maybe you should write one....
Quote:Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends.

Gandalf The Gray.
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#20
RE: To those who believe Bible is not literal...
What do you mean I don't want to hear your answer? anna, you asked what would happen to you if you were a knight who killed women in the name of your God. That is not a yes or no question, that is a question of 'what would happen to you if *scenario A* occured?" question. And fr0do gave you answer.

Where did I claim that I understood God better than the creators of the Bible? I did not. That would be a ridiculous lie.

If I wanted, I could write a book about my personal beliefs, understanding, and experiences with God, and perhaps someone could learn a thing or two from it, but it would be nowhere near as all-encompassing or expansive in it's understanding of God as the Bible's is.

Why have you not relied to any of my other answers? You have singled out one tiny aspect of my post and made that the focal point for your rebuttal? Are you incapable of seeing the bigger point that I am trying to make?

God is indeed all-powerful and could, in fact, speak to the whole world. The question is, in what way would He choose to speak, and why? Perhaps He has already spoken, not only in metaphysical ways but even in plain English--Oh hey! There's this book that was written about God a long time ago! It's called the Bible!

You should read it some time!
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