I have few questions to you,

First of all where is in the bible said that we should not take its words literal? Or where did you get this authority?

Second, Why god sent something that much vague to people? Didn't he knew that people "might" misunderstood him for 2000 years (and counting for some)?


Third, why did he send it as figure of speech? We are capable of(and better at) understanding literal commands either. Wouldn't it be more effective? Did god likes mind games?


Fourth, what will happen to people (like me) who would get the wrong message?


Fifth, why does this illiteral stories such as noah's ark, book of job or story of lot constantly had to include blood and violence? Wouldn't that give the impression of "god loves violence and we should kill people for him?" I think bugs bunny style stories would be better...(Wabbits!)


Sixth, Is hell illiteral too? What will happen to innocent unbelievers? Are they going to be tortured enternally?


And the last, can you give reasonable answers to those questions above?

(August 29, 2010 at 2:02 am)annatar Wrote: What will happen to innocent unbelievers? Are they going to be tortured enternally?

Only "metaphorically" of course.

Quote:Only "metaphorically" of course.

is that a good thing? I mean we may not be burnt but still feel the same pain.... That sounds unpleasant enough...

Seventh, if we can't take the Bible literal (if the men writing it didn't mean it to be literal or whatever), how do we know they didn't MAKE UP God in the first place?

(August 29, 2010 at 3:11 am)chasm Wrote: Seventh, if we can't take the Bible literal (if the men writing it didn't mean it to be literal or whatever), how do we know they didn't MAKE UP God in the first place?

I want to answer this on the behalf of some nutty theistsread it with an annoyin voice) We don't! That's why we call it faith... its a faith issue yada yada yada yada...............x10yada and some bla bla..

(August 29, 2010 at 3:23 am)annatar Wrote:

(August 29, 2010 at 3:11 am)chasm Wrote: Seventh, if we can't take the Bible literal (if the men writing it didn't mean it to be literal or whatever), how do we know they didn't MAKE UP God in the first place?

I want to answer this on the behalf of some nutty theistsread it with an annoyin voice) We don't! That's why we call it faith... its a faith issue yada yada yada yada...............x10yada and some bla bla..

Lmao!

Actually it was this issue that had a fairly important impact on my decision to drop theism entirely. While I had been quite the hardcore fundie in the early 90s, then by the mid 90s I basically put all my religious questions in a closet for a couple years. During that time, I read up on some philosophy and theology and found myself in I suppose what could be loosely termed a "liberal" Christian (I was into Pseudo-Dionysus, Eckhart, John of the Cross, Kierkegaard, Bonhoeffer, Tillich, Simone Weil, Thomas Merton, Karen Armstrong, as well as Plotinus, Buber, A.J. Heschel, and eastern philosophies). This was more than a mere casual flirtation with these theologians and mystics during that time in my life.

I had reasoned to myself that the truth of the Bible was not in supposed literal events (many of which I didn't believe actually had occurred). I reasoned to myself that the "truth" of the Bible was told metaphorically. I used to make the analogy of the Bible with Aesop's fables: If people read Aesop really believing that foxes, crows and ducks really can talk, then they have missed the truths that Aesop was illustrating in a creative way.

With such a principle in earnest, I naturally took many more Bible passages "metaphorically," beginning with Eden. But as time went on, I found myself believing more and more of it was not to be taken literally, including much of the "New" Testament. Eventually I found myself believing everything i the Bible was not to be taken literally except one thing which I superstitiously (and subconsciously) had been afraid to touch: the resurrection of Jesus (oddly enough, even as a Christian, I was never much concerned with any afterlife). It was on Easter of 2000 that I began questioning this as well, with the four rather different accounts and some oddities about it that never did make sense to me. Now even the resurrection was a metaphor for a "new life" in the here and now. Don't ask me now what that all meant to me at the time. But I believed that the apostles never actually met a resurrected Jesus, but rather they recognized him in everyone (which therefore also became a basis for a sort of ethics for me at the time).

This might sound fine in the abstract, but I found myself having more difficulties with which ever church I would attend, constantly having to re-interpret what other Christians said in my head in order to mean what it meant to me. As a result, I found myself cut off even more from people. There was no principle stated anywhere exactly where the metaphorical line ends, but I found myself rejecting practically ALL of it. At which point I began to wonder what was the point of such mental gymnastics. I read Walter Kaufmann's Critique of Philosophy and Religion and The Faith of a Heretic. In those books, Kaufmann dealt not with literalists (which are admittedly, easy targets), but rather with theologians like Bultmann and Tillich. It helped also to put another nail in the coffin for me.

A year later, in early 2001, I ironically had experienced a sort of anti-epiphany. At the time, I lived out in the country and I often would spend quiet moments out there alone. It suddenly struck me, ironically in a way I could almost describe as a mystical experience, that there was no god. There was just a pure irreductible IS-- but this was not even a transcendent "god beyond god" of the mystics-- there was no "ground of being," there was just "being." I can only say that experienced something I later called "metaphysical aphasia"-- all theological language and "meaning" was beyond my reach, nor did I want it. It was something alien to me.

I let everything go that day: the Bible, "god," Jesus, and all my metaphysical meanderings. It was the most liberating experience of my life and from that day onward I was able to accept TO MYSELF that I was in fact an atheist and there was nothing wrong with that.

And all began because I took certain Bible passages "metaphorically." I'm sure fundamentalists will take this as a "see? I told you its a slippery slope to hell!"

(August 29, 2010 at 2:02 am)annatar Wrote: First of all where is in the bible said that we should not take its words literal? Or where did you get this authority?

Third, why did he send it as figure of speech? We are capable of(and better at) understanding literal commands either. Wouldn't it be more effective? Did god likes mind games?

The bible directs you to use your intelligence and question.
http://www.wcg.org/lit/bible/literal2.htm

(August 29, 2010 at 2:02 am)annatar Wrote: Second, Why god sent something that much vague to people? Didn't he knew that people "might" misunderstood him for 2000 years (and counting for some)?

A common complaint. It's the style in which the bible was written. It's not meant to be something you don't have to think about. Belief in god is entirely intellectual. So making it so that you have to think is consistent.

(August 29, 2010 at 2:02 am)annatar Wrote: Fourth, what will happen to people (like me) who would get the wrong message?

If you are completely innocent you will be judged as such.

(August 29, 2010 at 2:02 am)annatar Wrote: Fifth, why does this illiteral stories such as noah's ark, book of job or story of lot constantly had to include blood and violence? Wouldn't that give the impression of "god loves violence and we should kill people for him?" I think bugs bunny style stories would be better...(Wabbits!)

It makes for interesting stories. God is never unjust or bad (despite what the Quran might say ).

(August 29, 2010 at 2:02 am)annatar Wrote: Sixth, Is hell illiteral too? What will happen to innocent unbelievers? Are they going to be tortured enternally?

Heaven and Hell are primarily about now.[/quote]

---

(August 29, 2010 at 6:47 am)Entropist Wrote: I let everything go that day: the Bible, "god," Jesus, and all my metaphysical meanderings. It was the most liberating experience of my life and from that day onward I was able to accept TO MYSELF that I was in fact an atheist and there was nothing wrong with that.

And all began because I took certain Bible passages "metaphorically." I'm sure fundamentalists will take this as a "see? I told you its a slippery slope to hell!"

I had a very similar experience Ent. I've since reasoned back to becoming a Christian. Lack of understanding is more the question I think, and not the illogical application of information as espoused by many fundamentalists. You cannot reason against your best understanding.

Quote:The bible directs you to use your intelligence and question. http://www.wcg.org/lit/bible/literal2.htm

So your intelligence leads you to this?
But you can have a better conclusion. This scriptures are written by men who want to control people. And these are just superstitions from the bronze age.A far more likely answer to me and to every rational person..
You are taking god's words as literal or illiteral as you pleased. Changing most horrible biblical stories as you like even Pollyanna wouldn't be that much an optimist... Whenever god decided to kill or make someone suffer, You are taking it as figure of speech. But all you have to do is simply reject this savage beliefs. In fact All you need is little courage. I think you too know that your claims are irrational...

Quote:A common complaint. It's the style in which the bible was written. It's not meant to be something you don't have to think about. Belief in god is entirely intellectual. So making it so that you have to think is consistent.

And an accurate complaint. My question is why? and apperently you have no answer... Whose fault that all of those people's death becouse of this?(this is not actually a question!)
Are you that blind? If bible said there are no witches you can't kill people just becouse they are different than you there would be no such things!! But noooo all loving god had to send something poetic.. He doesn't mind if thousands of people died.. Someone always ready to justify his actions for him...
I want you to answer this: Is it fair to couse thousands of death just to tell your words as poems????? Yes or No please!

Quote:Belief in god is entirely intellectual.

So if you are dumb or ignorant villager you shouldn't believe in god. Becouse you might misunderstood its words.And again its not written anywhere in the bible. That's just hilarious. And only theists are allowed to/capable of make(ing) such silly arguments.

Quote:If you are completely innocent you will be judged as such.

Even if I die as an atheist?
okay then Let me give you an example, lets say I was a knight from the middle age who served to ecclesiastical court. And I killed many woman becouse I thougth they were witch. But I did this just for the god. What will happen to me?

Quote:It makes for interesting stories. God is never unjust or bad (despite what the Quran might say ).

If it is clearly classifield as fiction such as lord of the rings its okay. But this book is the word of the god! And people did actually take it seriously and did some really crazy stuff! Even I could see it would turn out like that how can your all knowing god didn't think of it? (and by the way those stories are same in quran almost by letter you can easily believe islam using same "thats not literal" thing)

Quote:Heaven and Hell are primarily about now

What is that mean? umm... You know what forget I asked we have enough to discuss for now..

Your knowledge and understanding is indeed deeply lacking anna.

anna Wrote:okay then Let me give you an example, lets say I was a knight from the middle age who served to ecclesiastical court. And I killed many woman becouse I thougth they were witch. But I did this just for the god. What will happen to me?

You were mistaken in thinking that you were doing the will of God, because it clearly goes against Christ's teachings. How did you come to convince yourself of this fallacy? The question of your innocence lies there.