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The Holy Bible - fact or fiction?
#41
RE: The Holy Bible - fact or fiction?
Stimbo...
You said "I withhold belief in gods until there is sufficient evidence to support belief".
If you look around and see so many complex living beings, and you still need proof that it was designed by a Supreme Being?
Simple bad example would be a car.If you look at one you know he had to be made by somebody with intelligence.
Regarding God: Just because you cannot prove something exists does not mean it doesn't  exist.
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#42
RE: The Holy Bible - fact or fiction?
(March 26, 2017 at 12:21 pm)val5662 Wrote: If you look around and see so many complex living beings, and you still need proof that it was designed by a Supreme Being?

I sure do.

(March 26, 2017 at 12:21 pm)val5662 Wrote: Simple bad example would be a car.If you look at one you know he had to be made by somebody with intelligence.

We know a car that we find is created by someone because we have evidence of cars being created by people. The watchmaker analogy is old-hat. Come up with something new.

(March 26, 2017 at 12:21 pm)val5662 Wrote: Regarding God: Just because you cannot prove something exists does not mean it doesn't  exist.

You were already told that atheism is not a belief that there are no gods. It's a lack of belief in a god or gods. You are claiming that there is a god and I won't believe you until you provide some positive evidence.
I don't believe you. Get over it.
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#43
RE: The Holy Bible - fact or fiction?
The argument from design gets you nowhere even close to establishing a god. You seem to think we've never come across these things before.

(March 26, 2017 at 12:21 pm)val5662 Wrote: Regarding God: Just because you cannot prove something exists does not mean it doesn't exist.

I don't say it doesn't exist; I say please show me it does exist.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#44
RE: The Holy Bible - fact or fiction?
(March 26, 2017 at 12:21 pm)val5662 Wrote: Stimbo...
You said "I withhold belief in gods until there is sufficient evidence to support belief".
If you look around and see so many complex living beings, and you still need proof that it was designed by a Supreme Being?
Simple bad example would be a car.If you look at one you know he had to be made by somebody with intelligence.
Regarding God: Just because you cannot prove something exists does not mean it doesn't  exist.
[url=https://www.google.ca/search?num=40&q=intelligence&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjMuvCryfTSAhUC9YMKHaAQCzwQvwUIGSgA&biw=1360&bih=628][/url]

Many of us have been reading about science and religion and debating it for years and even decades. And if you think only Christians use "life is pretty and complex" as an argument, you'd be wrong. The fallacy of "design" has been used by Jews and Muslims and Hindus too.

Sure life has pretty and complex things in it so what? It also has some nasty and complex things in it. Bacteria and viruses are made up of DNA too, and those things depending on species can be very nasty and deadly. If humans are so well designed then why do bacteria and viruses and cockroaches outnumber humans? If we are so well designed then why can we choke on our food because we share the same eating and breathing tube? 

Kittens are cute sure, but cancer in children is not. The stars in the night time sky on a calm night is pretty, but I would not suggest you go up in a shuttle, take a space walk, and take your helmet off. "life is pretty" isn't an argument. That is merely your emotional reaction to things you find pleasing. I find lots of things in life pleasing too, so? You ignore that both the pretty things and nasty things are both natural and don't need a cosmic sky hero or ground villain to fill in the gap.

My mom was awesome, an example of the good in life, but that didn't stop her from dying. Hurricanes are not caused by the ocean god Poseidon and Thor does not cause lightening. You assume a magic invisible factory boss exists, but that really is nothing more than a projection of your own human qualities in your fears and desires, insecurities and narcissism.

Atheists DO find lots of good and pretty things in life and we can and do enjoy those things. But there are also very bad things in reality. We simply don't assign either to a fictional sky hero.

Science is the best way to explain both what we find pleasing and what we want to avoid, such as cancer and tornados an even violence. Human psychology is the science that explains why we do what we do. Evolution is the science that explains how life evolved. Things like astrophysics and quantum mechanics explain how the universe works. Humans do bad too, evolution produces violence between species and even violence between humans. Our planet, solar system, galaxy and universe also has tons of nasty crap, like meteors, black holes, super novas that are quite powerful in destruction.
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#45
RE: The Holy Bible - fact or fiction?
(March 26, 2017 at 12:11 pm)val5662 Wrote: Jörmungandr ....
If the Bible says something happened and it actually did, you still don't believe that the flood happened?

There is a vast gap between the bible saying something happened and knowing that it actually happened. We have no evidence that a worldwide flood occurred, and the bible claiming that it did is of no consequence. There is plenty of literature, holy and secular, from ages past that claim all sorts of things. That something "says" that something happened, particularly from this time period, is no guarantee that it did occur.

(March 26, 2017 at 12:11 pm)val5662 Wrote: Since it did, read the Bible section about the flood that God told Noah  years before  it occurred.

We have no evidence that either event happened. Do we know that God told Noah of the flood before it occurred? This is all written in the past tense. I could write a book today saying that I predicted World War II. That would be no example of prophecy as there's no evidence that I knew about the event before it occurred. Likewise we have no real evidence that Noah knew of the impending flood before it happened. It's all written from the perspective of events that had already happened. What we do know is that the books of the old testament were finalized sometime between 1200 BCE and the common era, and that the new testament was written between the first and second centuries of the common era. For an example from the bible to be valid prophecy, the event would have to occur between the writing of it in the bible, and the present day. The book of Daniel is instructive in this regard. It claims to have been written during the Babylonian captivity, which would make its foretelling of certain events a valid example of prophecy. However, the oldest copy of the book of Daniel that we have dates to about 150 BCE, post-dating the events foretold. On the basis of this, it's impossible to determine whether Daniel is valid prophecy or not. Internal evidence from the book suggest that rather than predating events as the book claims, it was actually written about the same time as the events which it is "foretelling." Unlike the valid question of the prophetic nature of Daniel, the tale of Noah is told from the perspective of an author writing long after the events that are claimed to have occurred.

There is an additional difficulty in the tale of Noah in the question of where did the author of Genesis get his information regarding what God told Noah beforehand? Tradition ascribes authorship of Genesis to Moses. So Moses either got his information from God, or from oral history. Neither source is specified in the text, so it's impossible to say with any surety that the tale as told is reliable. Supposedly, God can tell no lie. However, oral tradition is another matter. It's anybody's guess whether the tale as recorded actually occurred in the manner that it is told in Genesis.
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#46
RE: The Holy Bible - fact or fiction?
(March 26, 2017 at 11:07 am)val5662 Wrote: Another example:
The whole world was flooded once.
Scientists have proved that.
The Bible tells you that in detail.

bold mine

Show us the proof.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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#47
RE: The Holy Bible - fact or fiction?
Like I said before "If you look around and see so many complex living beings, and you still need proof that it was designed by a Supreme Being?" and that isn't proof enough,  and if your idea of "If i can't see it or touch it i don't believe it exists", I can't help ya out.

As for the "Evolution is the science that explains how life evolved." , that still says basically something appeared from nowhere and eventually turned into all the stuff we can see.
If you think that is true, and not a Creator we call God making everything from nothing, I can't help you out either.

The Bible is the only truthful book you will ever read.
It tells everything for Creation to the end of time.If you read it front to back and dismiss all or part of it, I can't help ya with that.
At the end of time, when you wake up you will find out The Bible was 100% correct in all it's verses.
I just hope some of you might see the light before then.
[Image: fool23kx75signature.jpg]



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#48
RE: The Holy Bible - fact or fiction?
(March 26, 2017 at 12:57 pm)val5662 Wrote: Like I said before "If you look around and see so many complex living beings, and you still need proof that it was designed by a Supreme Being?" and that isn't proof enough,  and if your idea of "If i can't see it or touch it i don't believe it exists", I can't help ya out.

I'm sorry we couldn't follow your script to your liking. Here, have a tissue.

(March 26, 2017 at 12:57 pm)val5662 Wrote: As for the "Evolution is the science that explains how life evolved." , that still says basically something appeared from nowhere and eventually turned into all the stuff we can see.
If you think that is true, and not a Creator we call God making everything from nothing, I can't help you out either.

False. Evolution makes no statements about where matter originally came from.

(March 26, 2017 at 12:57 pm)val5662 Wrote: The Bible is the only truthful book you will ever read.
It tells everything for Creation to the end of time.If you read it front to back and dismiss all or part of it, I can't help ya with that.
At the end of time, when you wake up you will find out The Bible was 100% correct in all it's verses.
I just hope some of you might see the light before then.

This is where you'll need some of that evidence we've mentioned. Bald assertions get sorted through the paper shredder.
I don't believe you. Get over it.
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#49
RE: The Holy Bible - fact or fiction?
(March 26, 2017 at 12:47 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:
(March 26, 2017 at 12:11 pm)val5662 Wrote: Jörmungandr ....
If the Bible says something happened and it actually did, you still don't believe that the flood happened?

There is a vast gap between the bible saying something happened and knowing that it actually happened.  We have no evidence that a worldwide flood occurred, and the bible claiming that it did is of no consequence.  There is plenty of literature, holy and secular, from ages past that claim all sorts of things.  That something "says" that something happened, particularly from this time period, is no guarantee that it did occur.

(March 26, 2017 at 12:11 pm)val5662 Wrote: Since it did, read the Bible section about the flood that God told Noah  years before  it occurred.

We have no evidence that either event happened.  Do we know that God told Noah of the flood before it occurred?  This is all written in the past tense.  I could write a book today saying that I predicted World War II.  That would be no example of prophecy as there's no evidence that I knew about the event before it occurred.  Likewise we have no real evidence that Noah knew of the impending flood before it happened.  It's all written from the perspective of events that had already happened.  What we do know is that the books of the old testament were finalized sometime between 1200 BCE and the common era, and that the new testament was written between the first and second centuries of the common era.  For an example from the bible to be valid prophecy, the event would have to occur between the writing of it in the bible, and the present day.  The book of Daniel is instructive in this regard.  It claims to have been written during the Babylonian captivity, which would make its foretelling of certain events a valid example of prophecy.  However, the oldest copy of the book of Daniel that we have dates to about 150 BCE, post-dating the events foretold.  On the basis of this, it's impossible to determine whether Daniel is valid prophecy or not.  Internal evidence from the book suggest that rather than predating events as the book claims, it was actually written about the same time as the events which it is "foretelling." Unlike the valid question of the prophetic nature of Daniel, the tale of Noah is told from the perspective of an author writing long after the events that are claimed to have occurred.

There is an additional difficulty in the tale of Noah in the question of where did the author of Genesis get his information regarding what God told Noah beforehand?  Tradition ascribes authorship of Genesis to Moses.  So Moses either got his information from God, or from oral history.  Neither source is specified in the text, so it's impossible to say with any surety that the tale as told is reliable.  Supposedly, God can tell no lie.  However, oral tradition is another matter.  It's anybody's guess whether the tale as recorded actually occurred in the manner that it is told in Genesis.

It isn't just that there is no evidence that a flood happened. I agree it did not. But it is also that science contradicts the claim on top of that. There is no way that flood could have happened as believers would claim. Science has damned good data now on the real geological history and astrophysics of earth in it's 4 billion years. The bible was not written with the intent of scientific objectivity, no religion of antiquity for that matter knew  what science knows now.

It is an immoral story alone, much less the science. It is not a corrective action, it is an act of revenge and genocide. Just as a moral motif I'd call the story vile. But even at the end of the story, DNA would say in the case of a limited gene pool someone would have to be fucking a family member eventually. 

Christians, and Muslims and Jews and even in polytheism back then prior to those three, were making very bad guesses as to the god/spirit/divine world interacting with humans. Floods are local, some bigger than others, and people in antiquity didn't know what our atmosphere was or how we have a working knowledge of it now, so a local rain back then to even polytheists could seem like the entire world because they didn't understand that the planet was a globe, so the horizon, especially if viewed at sea level or ground level, if flooded would seem like the entire world.


The Epic Of Gilgamesh is a polytheistic flood story and older.

The other absurdity of that story is the horrible claim that all the species of the world on 7 continents magically crossed the ocean, exactly how? How did the Australian kangaroo get across the ocean? If the world was flooded, why didn't the salt water kill off all the fresh water aquatic life? How exactly would Noah have handled dangerous animals like Cobras and dart frogs? And "poof" is all the theist has a solution? And why do the different books disagree on the numbers of animals? Some say two of each, other versions say 7. And again, if one family is left over, who are they fucking to repopulate the planet if not each other?

"poof" doesn't cut it. Maybe the book was written like that for the same reason polytheists made up gods like Horus and Apollo and Thor. Maybe that book was horribly written like that because humans didn't have our modern knowledge.

(March 26, 2017 at 12:57 pm)val5662 Wrote: Like I said before "If you look around and see so many complex living beings, and you still need proof that it was designed by a Supreme Being?" and that isn't proof enough,  and if your idea of "If i can't see it or touch it i don't believe it exists", I can't help ya out.

As for the "Evolution is the science that explains how life evolved." , that still says basically something appeared from nowhere and eventually turned into all the stuff we can see.
If you think that is true, and not a Creator we call God making everything from nothing, I can't help you out either.

The Bible is the only truthful book you will ever read.
It tells everything for Creation to the end of time.If you read it front to back and dismiss all or part of it, I can't help ya with that.
At the end of time, when you wake up you will find out The Bible was 100% correct in all it's verses.
I just hope some of you might see the light before then.

Evolution DOES NOT claim life came out of nothing. Atoms have mass, atoms make up carbon base life. Atoms are very real and demonstrably and repeatedly proven by science to exist.

Yes, all life is related and? You have no concept of very slow changes over long periods of time. Funny how you can call a Great Dane a dog, call a pit bull a dog. Funny how you can call a domestic house cat and big cats like tigers and lions both "cats'. We are related to other primates just like you can accept that grass and bushes and trees are considered plants.

Evolution does not claim that a monkey gave direct birth to a human. It does say our older cousins had offspring, slightly different look, then more splits and more families with slightly different looks because of time in that so many generations happened and so many different slight splits happened we look vastly different, just like a house cat looks different than a tiger and both are still called cats.

Evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins has pointed out that people who dont understand evolution think of it as like "mixing paint", no, with the base pares of DNA you need to think about it like "shuffling a deck of cards". The uniform back of the deck is in evolution, the 99% DNA all life shares, and the face cards are the 1% which makes each card look slightly different, like the Jack and Queen of hearts look slightly different, but the two of hearts and 3 of spades looks completely different. 

Most people don't know, or ignore, like you for example, that whales have hip bones, fossil records prove that they started out in water, went to land, then back to water. No sudden change, no, but adaptation and tiny genetic changes between generations. 

DNA is in everything. It is in bacteria, cockroaches, grass, and trees and humans. All life is made up of adenine, guanine, thymine and cytosine=DNA.  DNA is the back of the uniform card, and the slight genetic shuffle that prevents slightly different looks which we observe as the face of the card. And all evolution needs is reproduction, adaptation, and very slight change in the sequence over long periods of time to create slightly different looks, and over time those slight difference can shuffle more and more over time over millions of years to create completely different looks.
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#50
RE: The Holy Bible - fact or fiction?
(March 26, 2017 at 12:57 pm)val5662 Wrote: Like I said before "If you look around and see so many complex living beings, and you still need proof that it was designed by a Supreme Being?" and that isn't proof enough,  and if your idea of "If i can't see it or touch it i don't believe it exists", I can't help ya out.

That you can't help out is no big frigging surprise. What is also no big surprise is that we can't help you out in your search for truth. You're what we like to call "stupid and ignorant." In response to a challenge to the truth of your claims, all you can do is continue to assert. The existence of complex beings is explained by the process of evolution. Yet you already know this. Which makes you not just ignorant, but stubbornly ignorant. That you have an answer to a question and you still default to an answer for which you have no evidence, well that would be the stupid part.

(March 26, 2017 at 12:57 pm)val5662 Wrote: The Bible is the only truthful book you will ever read.
It tells everything for Creation to the end of time.If you read it front to back and dismiss all or part of it, I can't help ya with that.

Help us out? How about you help yourself out? If you can't explain the reasons why you think the bible is true sufficiently well to aid us in our quest for the truth, then the odds are that you have no reason for believing that the bible is true. You just happen to believe. Believing things without knowing the reasons why you believe does in fact make you pretty worthless in any quest for the truth.

(March 26, 2017 at 12:57 pm)val5662 Wrote: At the end of time, when you wake up you will find out The Bible was 100% correct in all it's verses.

And you know this 'how' exactly? You don't know it. You just claim it.

(March 26, 2017 at 12:57 pm)val5662 Wrote: I just hope some of you might see the light before then.

We're hoping you'll see the light before then, as well, but it's a very slim hope given your poor showing to date.
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