Posts: 30726
Threads: 2123
Joined: May 24, 2012
Reputation:
71
RE: Carl Sagan: A Universe Not Made For Us
April 25, 2017 at 5:03 pm
(April 25, 2017 at 2:57 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I like Harlan Ellison's formulation: "We are the universe, observing itself."
OUCH, um no. That to me is simply a si fi version of "forever". We are made up of the same matter that lead to the big bang, yes. And the atoms in us are the result of stars that died before our own sun. But we are not the universe nor is the universe us. The structure of the universe as a whole is not the same structure as an individual human, the two are completely different.
We are a temporary blip, just like a temporary hurricane may be result of the earth's atmosphere but is not the entire earth itself. There is no such thing as a "forever" cognition.
Posts: 3638
Threads: 20
Joined: July 20, 2011
Reputation:
47
RE: Carl Sagan: A Universe Not Made For Us
April 25, 2017 at 5:26 pm
(This post was last modified: April 25, 2017 at 5:27 pm by Simon Moon.)
When you put all the evidence together, without as many presuppositions as possible, it is so obvious that we exist due to the conditions of the universe being such as to be able to produce and sustain life. Not because the universe was designed to produce us.
Neo-Scholastic's vision of the universe being created for us, is not romantic at all. It is the ultimate in conceit and arrogance.
Conservatively, there are at least 100 billion galaxies, each with at least 100 billion stars, each star with planets, a good percentage of those are rocky and in the habitable zone. And all of that extant almost 13.7 billion years before there was even life on Earth, and another 4.4 billion years for humans to appear. And that is his god's "design"?
Sometimes it just hits me how truly silly theistic beliefs really are.
This video pretty much nails it,
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
Posts: 23610
Threads: 26
Joined: February 2, 2010
Reputation:
105
RE: Carl Sagan: A Universe Not Made For Us
April 25, 2017 at 5:34 pm
(This post was last modified: April 25, 2017 at 6:11 pm by Thumpalumpacus.)
(April 25, 2017 at 5:03 pm)Brian37 Wrote: (April 25, 2017 at 2:57 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I like Harlan Ellison's formulation: "We are the universe, observing itself."
OUCH, um no. That to me is simply a si fi version of "forever". We are made up of the same matter that lead to the big bang, yes. And the atoms in us are the result of stars that died before our own sun. But we are not the universe nor is the universe us. The structure of the universe as a whole is not the same structure as an individual human, the two are completely different.
We are a temporary blip, just like a temporary hurricane may be result of the earth's atmosphere but is not the entire earth itself. There is no such thing as a "forever" cognition.
If that's the way you understand that quote, so be it. I have a different understanding than you, and it works for me.
(April 25, 2017 at 2:57 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I like Harlan Ellison's formulation: "We are the universe, observing itself."
Minor correction: He said "pondering", not "observing", itself.
Posts: 7259
Threads: 506
Joined: December 12, 2015
Reputation:
22
RE: Carl Sagan: A Universe Not Made For Us
May 5, 2017 at 1:42 pm
(April 24, 2017 at 7:41 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I think it's rather romantic to think God went to all the trouble just for us.
How do you know this?
Posts: 947
Threads: 0
Joined: May 12, 2016
Reputation:
11
RE: Carl Sagan: A Universe Not Made For Us
May 5, 2017 at 2:28 pm
(April 24, 2017 at 7:41 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I think it's rather romantic to think God went to all the trouble just for us.
Believing IS all about feeling good.
"The last superstition of the human mind is the superstition that religion in itself is a good thing." - Samuel Porter Putnam
Posts: 30129
Threads: 304
Joined: April 18, 2014
Reputation:
91
RE: Carl Sagan: A Universe Not Made For Us
May 5, 2017 at 3:05 pm
(This post was last modified: May 5, 2017 at 3:05 pm by vorlon13.)
except when it's concerning possible food poisoning . . . .
The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it.
Posts: 7677
Threads: 635
Joined: January 19, 2013
Reputation:
30
RE: Carl Sagan: A Universe Not Made For Us
May 5, 2017 at 9:32 pm
Humanity is a "resident" rather than "owner" in the universe.
As long as death exists, and it is a fact, we can't be owners.
As for other religions saying that the universe is small and only what we see, Islam says otherwise:
Sura 51, Page 522, The Quran
( 47 ) And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are expanding.
Furthermore; it's saying about whoever visits the cosmos:
Sura 15, Page 262, The Quran
( 14 ) And [even] if We opened to them a gate from the heaven and they continued therein to ascend,
( 15 ) They would say, "Our eyes have only been dazzled. Rather, we are a people affected by magic."
Posts: 6611
Threads: 73
Joined: May 31, 2014
Reputation:
56
RE: Carl Sagan: A Universe Not Made For Us
May 5, 2017 at 9:40 pm
(April 25, 2017 at 5:03 pm)Brian37 Wrote: (April 25, 2017 at 2:57 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I like Harlan Ellison's formulation: "We are the universe, observing itself."
OUCH, um no. That to me is simply a si fi version of "forever". We are made up of the same matter that lead to the big bang, yes. And the atoms in us are the result of stars that died before our own sun. But we are not the universe nor is the universe us. The structure of the universe as a whole is not the same structure as an individual human, the two are completely different.
We are a temporary blip, just like a temporary hurricane may be result of the earth's atmosphere but is not the entire earth itself. There is no such thing as a "forever" cognition.
Now we're going to jump on people for using poetic language? lol ...
Posts: 334
Threads: 7
Joined: January 8, 2017
Reputation:
7
RE: Carl Sagan: A Universe Not Made For Us
May 6, 2017 at 9:59 am
(April 25, 2017 at 5:03 pm)Brian37 Wrote: (April 25, 2017 at 2:57 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I like Harlan Ellison's formulation: "We are the universe, observing itself."
OUCH, um no. That to me is simply a si fi version of "forever". We are made up of the same matter that lead to the big bang, yes. And the atoms in us are the result of stars that died before our own sun. But we are not the universe nor is the universe us. The structure of the universe as a whole is not the same structure as an individual human, the two are completely different.
We are a temporary blip, just like a temporary hurricane may be result of the earth's atmosphere but is not the entire earth itself. There is no such thing as a "forever" cognition.
I always thought he meant that each of us is a part of the universe that has become temporarily self aware and that he made this point to differentiate from the religious view that we were created separately from the universe and imbued with Freewill.
His version is far more succinct.
If god was real he wouldn't need middle men to explain his wants or do his bidding.
|
