Is the Holy Spirit Misleading You?

[Jehanne]

Steve,

You know that this is absolutely false; that religious fundamentalism is in decline and secularism is on the rise.  Geesh, a mere 400 years ago anyone who was an atheist would have had their tongue torn from their mouth and then would be dragged kicking and screaming to the town square to be burned alive at the stake.  And, so, yes, times have changed, and are changing!

No, you have to distinguish between what you would like to see and what really is happening. There are more and more Christians in the world every year and atheism remains stagnant. Pew projects 750,000,000 more Christians (not even counting other religions) by 2050 and just 30,000,000 more atheists. That's 25:1. 

Come on Jehanne--you need to do better getting your compelling message out there! You're slacking!

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/relig...2010-2050/
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...opulation/

Mark Twain once said, "There are lies, damned lies, and then there's statistics."  In Europe, Christianity is fast becoming a dead religion, and Biblical fundamentalism is a rarity.  Yes, in Africa and southeast Asia, Christianity is making inroads among the ignorant, poor and oppressed, but so is Islam.  In fact, Islam is growing, also, as the population grows!

---

how much screaming do folks do after their tongues are ripped out ?

You can still very much moan and even articulate sounds from one's throat.  It's absolutely disgusting, but Christians, for centuries, recognized immolation at the stake as either resulting in the salvation of a sinner, repentant or otherwise, or at least preparing a damned soul for the fires of eternal Hell, an act of mercy that would prepare the damned for the "eternal fires".

[SteveII]

No, you have to distinguish between what you would like to see and what really is happening. There are more and more Christians in the world every year and atheism remains stagnant. Pew projects 750,000,000 more Christians (not even counting other religions) by 2050 and just 30,000,000 more atheists. That's 25:1. 

Come on Jehanne--you need to do better getting your compelling message out there! You're slacking!

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/relig...2010-2050/
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...opulation/

Mark Twain once said, "There are lies, damned lies, and then there's statistics."  In Europe, Christianity is fast becoming a dead religion, and Biblical fundamentalism is a rarity.  Yes, in Africa and southeast Asia, Christianity is making inroads among the ignorant, poor and oppressed, but so is Islam.  In fact, Islam is growing, also, as the population grows!

Even if I grant that Christianity is not growing in Europe, what does that mean? That somehow Europeans have a monopoly on truth? reason? LOL. Tell me where Malcolm Muggeridge got it wrong:

“So the final conclusion would surely be that whereas other civilizations have been brought down by attacks of barbarians from without, ours had the unique distinction of training its own destroyers at its own educational institutions, and then providing them with facilities for propagating their destructive ideology far and wide, all at the public expense. Thus did Western Man decide to abolish himself, creating his own boredom out of his own affluence, his own vulnerability out of his own strength, his own impotence out of his own erotomania, himself blowing the trumpet that brought the walls of his own city tumbling down, and having convinced himself that he was too numerous, labored with pill and scalpel and syringe to make himself fewer. Until at last, having educated himself into imbecility, and polluted and drugged himself into stupefaction, he keeled over--a weary, battered old brontosaurus--and became extinct.” 

― Malcolm Muggeridge

What information do you hold that you think that the populations of Asia, Africa, and South America don't that makes them more susceptible to believing Christianity? 

Islam grows mainly out of forbidding a choice to its next generation. Hardly a measure of where the thoughts of the world's population are freely heading.

[Jehanne]

Here's the rundown right here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_re...opulations

From Pew, nonetheless.  As, so, atheism/non-religious/etc, is in 3rd place; not too bad considering where we were 300 years ago!

[SteveII]

Here's the rundown right here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_re...opulations

From Pew, nonetheless.  As, so, atheism/non-religious/etc, is in 3rd place; not too bad considering where we were 300 years ago!

Don't confuse "nones" with atheists. They are definitely not the same. Nones can certainly believe in God, the supernatural etc. and just don't want to identify with a particular organized religion. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

This article lists atheists estimates in the 5-7% range--with 40% of those being older Chinese--where religion was against the law!!! That's amusing in light of your comment--the Chinese just outlawed religion and nearly doubled in one generation what the rest of you atheists took 300 years to do. Now it's not against the law and the numbers are swinging back. What does that tell you? It seems your message is not very compelling!

You never answered what information you think that Europeans have that the people in the developing countries don't know and are therefore are susceptible to religion. Perhaps you can help get the message to them!

[Jehanne]

Just look at the evolution of Europe over the last 600 years; as Europe goes, so shall the entire World.  Once a country embraces atheism, such as France, there is no turning back, no religious revivals, except among a tiny population, largely, of immigrants.  I don't think that most of the board members here give a hoot about liberal religious traditions, such as Episcopalians, who are nearly tolerant of everyone, atheists included, and would balk at imposing their religious and/or moral beliefs upon anyone.

[SteveII]

Just look at the evolution of Europe over the last 600 years; as Europe goes, so shall the entire World. [1] Once a country embraces atheism, such as France, there is no turning back, no religious revivals, except among a tiny population, largely, of immigrants. [2] I don't think that most of the board members here give a hoot about liberal religious traditions, such as Episcopalians, who are nearly tolerant of everyone, atheists included, and would balk at imposing their religious and/or moral beliefs upon anyone.

1. That's interesting because for 500 years of the 600 you mention, religion dominated Europe. So, what exactly is the foundation of your premise that the rest of the world will follow it into it's slide into irrelevance?
2.  How do you explain that China was the most atheistic country in the world a generation ago and now Christianity is making staggeringly large gains there in the last couple of decades and will become the most Christian nation (surpassing the US in numbers) in the world within 2 generations of being the most atheistic !?!? It seems your conclusions are entirely unfounded.

[Lek]

The message of the Holy Spirit is always true.  Individuals who perform evil in the name of the Holy Spirit are not following him.  Do some people commit evil in the name of God?  Sure.  People commit evil in the name of many things and may even think they're doing the right thing.  We should always check our desires against scripture.  In the case of burning witches, the bible doesn't condone it.  It may have been commanded to the old testament Israelites, but not to us.  God's covenant with Moses had it's purposes and his covenant with his followers after the cross has it's purposes.

Then please explain 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12:

'For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.'

If the message of the Holy Spirit is always true, why does God deliberately delude people?

Boru

If you read the preceding and following verses you will discover that he is referring to people who already refuse to believe God. It says that he will cause these people to believe and follow the man of lawlessness. It's not that the Spirit is lying to them, but rather that God is withholding the Spirit from them so that they will naturally be deceived by the man of lawlessness.

[Jehanne]

Just look at the evolution of Europe over the last 600 years; as Europe goes, so shall the entire World. [1] Once a country embraces atheism, such as France, there is no turning back, no religious revivals, except among a tiny population, largely, of immigrants. [2] I don't think that most of the board members here give a hoot about liberal religious traditions, such as Episcopalians, who are nearly tolerant of everyone, atheists included, and would balk at imposing their religious and/or moral beliefs upon anyone.

1. That's interesting because for 500 years of the 600 you mention, religion dominated Europe. So, what exactly is the foundation of your premise that the rest of the world will follow it into it's slide into irrelevance?
2.  How do you explain that China was the most atheistic country in the world a generation ago and now Christianity is making staggeringly large gains there in the last couple of decades and will become the most Christian nation (surpassing the US in numbers) in the world within 2 generations of being the most atheistic !?!? It seems your conclusions are entirely unfounded.

You don't know China's future any more than I do; in fact, it may be the repression in China with their Great Firewall that is leading scores of individuals down the path of ignorance into the nonsense of religious faith.  And, I have no idea of how you can say that Europe, with 300 million people and with over one-half of all Nobel Prize winners, is somehow "irrelevant".

[SteveII]

1. That's interesting because for 500 years of the 600 you mention, religion dominated Europe. So, what exactly is the foundation of your premise that the rest of the world will follow it into it's slide into irrelevance?
2.  How do you explain that China was the most atheistic country in the world a generation ago and now Christianity is making staggeringly large gains there in the last couple of decades and will become the most Christian nation (surpassing the US in numbers) in the world within 2 generations of being the most atheistic !?!? It seems your conclusions are entirely unfounded.

You don't know China's future any more than I do; in fact, it may be the repression in China with their Great Firewall that is leading scores of individuals down the path of ignorance into the nonsense of religious faith.  And, I have no idea of how you can say that Europe, with 300 million people and with over one-half of all Nobel Prize winners, is somehow "irrelevant".

So, China's population was largely atheists a generation ago and now, because they can't get the full internet, their population (by the tens of millions) can't resist the slide into ignorance and nonsense without the government telling them what to believe. Boy, atheism is complicated!!

LOL, Europeans giving Europeans awards--that is a true sign of relevance! Listen, it's not that I don't like Europe, but you can't imagine that they are going to be anywhere near the force they were when they had armies and navies controlling the trading of the world. That time has long past. It is only that they have banded together that they are of any economic relevance today. Politically? Do they have any power in the world?

[Jehanne]

You don't know China's future any more than I do; in fact, it may be the repression in China with their Great Firewall that is leading scores of individuals down the path of ignorance into the nonsense of religious faith.  And, I have no idea of how you can say that Europe, with 300 million people and with over one-half of all Nobel Prize winners, is somehow "irrelevant".

So, China's population was largely atheists a generation ago and now, because they can't get the full internet, their population (by the tens of millions) can't resist the slide into ignorance and nonsense without the government telling them what to believe. Boy, atheism is complicated!!

LOL, Europeans giving Europeans awards--that is a true sign of relevance! Listen, it's not that I don't like Europe, but you can't imagine that they are going to be anywhere near the force they were when they had armies and navies controlling the trading of the world. That time has long past. It is only that they have banded together that they are of any economic relevance today. Politically? Do they have any power in the world?

You have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that China, as a whole, was ever atheistic a generation ago.  Perhaps this was true of some in the Communist Party but not true of the populace, as a whole.  But, who really cares?  You can try to convert as many people as you want to your nonsensical and false belief system; we and I will do our best to deconvert them, or better yet, help them not to waste their time, energy and money going down that futile path to begin with!

As for Europe's influence in the World, you might as well try to argue the fact that the Earth is flat by doubting that Europe, as a whole, is at least influential, if not more so, than the United States.