The undeniable miracle at Fatima

[LastPoet]

This "miracle" did wonder filling the pockets of the vatican even more.

A couple of years back I was in Fatima working and people were saying there was another sun miracle hapening so I looked up and told the idiots "its a fucking 22° solar halo". A very well known meteorological phenomenon.

It is easy to fool those ignorant, illiterate people that lived there at the time. Being Portuguese I know all too well how fucked up were the people at the time.

Gee, god makes the sun dance, but does nothing to prevent those faithful from getting roadkilled when in pilgrimage to there. Every year deaths happen

[Cyberman]

Even assuming it's all true, how do you get from "sun flying around the sky" to "therefore god"?

 

1. The lady, according to the children, claimed to be from heaven, and her message was a religious one on the need for prayer etc.
   
2. She predicted a miracle months ahead of time to the exact location and time, and relayed this to the children, and it actually took place. No human could make such a prediction - the weatherman can't even get the weather right the day before!
   

Thereby hangs your problem. "According to the children"; "claimed to be"; "no human could". A huge argument from ignorance.

Are you aware that according to The Day The Earth Stood Still, this guy



claimed to be from another planet and accurately predicted what would happen if humanity didn't stop developing atomic weapons? No human could possibly do that! His message was a humanitarian one on the need for compassion and peace.

He also rose from the dead, but that's a given with fictional characters.

Notwithstanding, I'm sure you'd agree that Klaatu up there in no way suggests any god. Why does your story, with just as much information and justification?

[Cyberman]

Meanwhile back on Earth, why don't you address the physical impossibilities that I and others pointed out? You know, rather than pulling up news reports and simply wanting it to be true?

My prophecy: it's magic.

[ignoramus]

[downbeatplumb]

All I keep seeing is responses saying, "Nope, it didn't happen", with nothing else solid to back why you are denying it. You cannot say it didn't happen because it appeared in at least 2 newspapers the following day, and these were anti-religious newspapers. Here is the English translations of the text from each of the newspapers. Something VERY significant happened right where and when the lady and the children said:

After the miracle, the anti-religious newspaper, Diario de Noticias reported:

“At one o’clock the rain stopped. The sky had a certain gray clarity but seemed to suddenly be getting darker. The sun seemed veiled in gauze. We could look at it without strain. The gray tint of mother-of-pearl began changing as if into a silver disc that was growing and growing... until it broke the clouds! Then the silvery sun, still shrouded in that grayish light, began to rotate and wander within the circle of the receded clouds!

“The people cried out with one voice. Thousands, transported by ecstasy fell to their knees upon the muddy ground. Then, as if it were shining through the stained glass windows of a great cathedral, the light became a rare blue, spreading its rays upon the nave... Slowly the blue faded away and now the light seemed to be filtered through yellow. Yellow spots were falling now upon the white kerchiefs and dark shirts of coarse wool. They were spots which repeated themselves indefinitely over the landscape. All the people were weeping and praying bareheaded, weighted down by the greatness of the miracle. These were seconds, moments, that seemed hours...”


O Século, the other skeptical newspaper added:

“From beside the parked carriages and where many thousands stood, afraid to descend into the muddy soil of the Cova da Iria, we saw the immense crowd turn toward the sun at its highest, free of all clouds. The sun seemed to us like a plate of dull silver. It could be seen without the least effort. It did not blind or burn. It seemed as though an eclipse were taking place. All of a sudden a tremendous shout burst forth, ‘Miracle, miracle!’

“Before the astonished eyes of the people, whose attitude carried us back to Biblical times, and who, white with terror, heads uncovered, gazed at the sun which trembled and made brusque and unheard of movement beyond all cosmic laws, the sun seemed literally to dance in the sky.

“Immediately afterward the people asked each other if they saw anything and what they had seen. The greatest number avowed that they saw the sun trembling and dancing; others declared they saw the smiling face of the Blessed Virgin herself. They swore that the sun turned around on itself as if it were a wheel of fireworks and had fallen almost to the point of burning the earth with its rays. Some said they saw it change colors successively.”

we know that the sun did not move about the sky because:

A: In no other part of the world where the sun is visible did it appear to shift in any other than its normal route.
B: The solar system wasn't ripped apart in the ensuing gravitational shifts that would follow the sun actually moving like that.

So we are left with:

A: local optical illusion.
B: Mass hallucination.
C: Just a load of bollocks.
D: Some combination of A, B or C

[Joods]

Don't you just love it when theists come here with their ridiculous spins on whatever bullshit of the day, trying to convince us?

[pabsta]

All I keep seeing is responses saying, "Nope, it didn't happen", with nothing else solid to back why you are denying it. You cannot say it didn't happen because it appeared in at least 2 newspapers the following day, and these were anti-religious newspapers. Here is the English translations of the text from each of the newspapers. Something VERY significant happened right where and when the lady and the children said:

After the miracle, the anti-religious newspaper, Diario de Noticias reported:

“At one o’clock the rain stopped. The sky had a certain gray clarity but seemed to suddenly be getting darker. The sun seemed veiled in gauze. We could look at it without strain. The gray tint of mother-of-pearl began changing as if into a silver disc that was growing and growing... until it broke the clouds! Then the silvery sun, still shrouded in that grayish light, began to rotate and wander within the circle of the receded clouds!

“The people cried out with one voice. Thousands, transported by ecstasy fell to their knees upon the muddy ground. Then, as if it were shining through the stained glass windows of a great cathedral, the light became a rare blue, spreading its rays upon the nave... Slowly the blue faded away and now the light seemed to be filtered through yellow. Yellow spots were falling now upon the white kerchiefs and dark shirts of coarse wool. They were spots which repeated themselves indefinitely over the landscape. All the people were weeping and praying bareheaded, weighted down by the greatness of the miracle. These were seconds, moments, that seemed hours...”


O Século, the other skeptical newspaper added:

“From beside the parked carriages and where many thousands stood, afraid to descend into the muddy soil of the Cova da Iria, we saw the immense crowd turn toward the sun at its highest, free of all clouds. The sun seemed to us like a plate of dull silver. It could be seen without the least effort. It did not blind or burn. It seemed as though an eclipse were taking place. All of a sudden a tremendous shout burst forth, ‘Miracle, miracle!’

“Before the astonished eyes of the people, whose attitude carried us back to Biblical times, and who, white with terror, heads uncovered, gazed at the sun which trembled and made brusque and unheard of movement beyond all cosmic laws, the sun seemed literally to dance in the sky.

“Immediately afterward the people asked each other if they saw anything and what they had seen. The greatest number avowed that they saw the sun trembling and dancing; others declared they saw the smiling face of the Blessed Virgin herself. They swore that the sun turned around on itself as if it were a wheel of fireworks and had fallen almost to the point of burning the earth with its rays. Some said they saw it change colors successively.”

we know that the sun did not move about the sky because:

A: In no other part of the world where the sun is visible did it appear to shift in any other than its normal route.
B: The solar system wasn't ripped apart in the ensuing gravitational shifts that would follow the sun actually moving like that.

So we are left with:

A: local optical illusion.
B: Mass hallucination.
C: Just a load of bollocks.
D: Some combination of A, B or C

 
There are plenty of eyewitness testimonials that were given from people who were miles away from the incident who attest to seeing it from afar. If you want me to post some of those testimonials I can.


Testimonials have weight in numbers. Bring even 3 eyewitnesses to any court hearing and see how quick a decision is made. And two anti-religious newspapers confirming the miracle the following day is certainly the last thing they wanted to do -- but they did because they became believers after seeing it.

You all clearly cannot explain what has been presented to you. There is a common theme between all of your replies; they are all filled with vulgarities and rude comments with no other intelligent arguments - your frustration is showing. How about some REAL arguments guys?

---

Where the two conflict, physical evidence - or lack thereof - eats eyewitnesses and blows them out in bubbles.

 

First of all, not all events in this world leave behind physical evidence. If I shined a bright light in your face yesterday, there is no physical evidence of it today.
 
That point being made, the eyewitness testimonies from thousands of people that didn't know each other unanimously concur that everyone's clothes dried immediately after the incident. There is your physical evidence - though we obviously cannot see that now, so we have the weight of countless testimonials to confirm it, just like we do with any other event handed down to us in history.

[ignoramus]

Are you serious?

You want us to accept that the laws of physics have been broken just so you can feel warm and fuzzy in your skydaddy stories?
That's what you are asking us, right?

Would you accept preposterous claims from a Muslim or a Hindu? Or is just yours the one true religion....
Please give us a break....

[brewer]

[edit]

There are plenty of eyewitness testimonials that were given from people who were miles away from the incident who attest to seeing it from afar. If you want me to post some of those testimonials I can.

[edit]

Yes, please give us more eye witness testimony.

[ignoramus]

What's wrong with eye witness testimony MH? It's not like anyone's gonna lie or anything?