The undeniable miracle at Fatima

[pabsta]

What you are requesting has been done for St. Bernadette's incorrupt body. The body examination testimony is located on the same page I linked to.

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An example of the logic presented in this discussion. A conversation after an exhibition baseball game:

Tom (baseball fan): Wow, you missed the exhibition baseball game yesterday! Did you hear about how that player from the Yankees charged the mound and took a swipe at the Red Sox pitcher?
Joe (his atheist friend): That player would never do such a thing
Tom: Well he did, I was there and I saw him
Joe: Where's your proof?
Tom: What are you talking about! I'm telling you I was there and I saw it, and there was a large crowd there too that saw it!
Joe: Well show me the video where it happened
Tom: It was an exhibition game, so it was not televised. Though there are still shots available of the game and the large crowd
Joe: That's not enough, so I don't believe that player ever took a swipe at the Red Sox pitcher
Tom: Dude, everyone at the game saw it, including some reporters who interviewed some of the fans about it afterward, and it was confirmed in newspapers the following day!
Joe: Did the newspaper articles contain a photo of the player swinging at the pitcher?
Tom: Well, no, but the articles still confirmed that it happened!
Joe: That's not enough, so I say it never happened unless you provide me more evidence. Every incident leaves behind evidence
Tom: Well in this instance, the player charged the mound, swung at the pitcher and missed, so there are no bruises or other evidence. But what does that matter when I'm telling you I saw it, and the large crowd there saw it, and it was in the newspapers the following day, with statements from fans confirming they saw it?
Joe: Eyewitness testimony as unreliable. Sorry Tom, the incident never happened

Readers of this discussion are going to be fit for a loony bin if they read any more of the illogical arguments being presented in here!

Are you actually attempting to compare the above story to the stories of Bernadette and Fatima?!

Do you even notice why your above story is a flawed analogy? Probably not, huh...

Let me clue you in.

Exhibition baseball games can be proven to exist.

Baseball players can be proven to exist.

Baseball players can be proven to have charged the mound in the past.

It can be proven that an exhibition game pitting the Yankees against the Red Sox on the day in question took place.

There are zero parts of your story that are in the least bit extraordinary, therefore, it can easily be believed on the word of the person that witnessed it.

But your stories about Fatima or Bernadette's incorrupt body, are not even in the same ballpark (pun intended) as the mundane story about a baseball game, and therefore, require much better evidence to be believable, by those of us with a modicum of critical thinking skills, to be supernatural events.

Unless of course, one were to set there bar for the validity of evidence as low as you have. But then, some of us actually care whether we have good reasons for our beliefs, and others (cough...) don't.

So, you've already knocked over the chess pieces and crapped on the board. All that's left is for you to fly back to your flock and claim victory.

Yes, and the 3 children can be proven to have existed, as can their public prediction of a miracle 3 months beforehand, as can thousands of people showing up at the Cova, as can the newspaper articles the following day, as can the countless number of testimonials that were submitted afterward. But ALL of that should be completely ignored and swept under the carpet simply because you don't believe what they're testimonials had to say? Absurdity. Like any jury would ignore all of that!

[Cyberman]

I've had discussions here before about the miracle of the sun. I find it very convincing and impossible to explain away as something other than a supernatural phenomenon. Someone here even said it was a conspiracy by the government (who was somehow able to predict that the sun would do weird things on that day at that time, months ahead of time) and they had the kids involved.

Except the sun didn't do weird things.

If the sun started doing weird things, everyone on earth (at least where the sun was out) would see it.  Yet that's not what happened.  It was a localized event--which points to no supernatural cause.  If I said last night that the moon started flying around spelling out "OBEY THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER" you would think me nuts.  If 100 other people then said they saw it too, but didn't see what it spelled, you'd think something was going on.  But you wouldn't say it was a miracle from the Flying Spaghetti Monster.  And if the church of the flying spaghetti monster confirmed the event, you still wouldn't believe it.  Because there were still people on earth who didn't see anything, despite the fact we all see the same moon and if it started moving it would be noticed by everyone.

Well, no; see, the fact that not everyone saw the same thing - including and especially nothing at all - proves that it was a miracle. Otherwise everyone would have seen it and agreed to what they saw. Clearly the miracle wasn't for everyone; only those who wanted to witness it.

Right, CL?

[pabsta]

I wonder what the Christian explanation is for 'incorruptible' bodies of people who weren't Christian.

Sorry, none exist. There is an excellent book called "The Incorruptibles" by Joan Cruz that covers the subject. Spoke to her myself about the subject before she died. But that's right, I forgot, you guys don't except research, books, or testimonials on such things unless it fits YOUR definition of acceptable. What a shame.

[Harry Nevis]

As someone who doesn't appear to believe in the incorruptibles, and given this phenomenon only occurs with devout Catholics, the question you should be asking yourself is how even a single incorrupt body could exist. It completely defies science no matter who's incorrupt body we are speaking about. They are on display all over Europe for you to go see. I am not the one having a problem understanding and believing in them, so it is up to you to go and see them. Next time you schedule a vacation, make it in Europe so you can go see them.

As for differentiating between ordinary and extraordinary claims, that is relative. Atheists seem to categorize many things as extraordinary that others wouldn't. Again, let's assume for the moment that the sun never bobbed up and down in the sky. The question then becomes, why did thousands of people submit testimonies saying they think it did?

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"on display" are the key words here. If you can only see them, you're only taking the word of a believer. Many so-called "incorruptibles" are accented or even made, of wax.  At least one was found to have been a recent body instead of the saint they were identified as.

Why the testimonies?  You answered your own question.  They THINK they did.

[Cyberman]

But what people in this forum are doing is taking the situation a step further. Because you don't believe something extraordinary happened with the sun, you therefore to logically conclude that NOTHING happened at all.

It's called parsimony. We have to eliminate all other mundane possibilities before leaping to nail ourselves to intractable magic ones. Cart/horse, remember?

[Harry Nevis]

The fact remains that SOMETHING dried everyone's clothes within minutes and made them think they were going to die. Thousands of people that don't know each other, both at the site and miles away, have no reason to lie about those facts. If you think they were wrong about the sun, fine, but saying therefore NOTHING happened at all is totally retarded.

They were all believers.  Believers lie about their faith all the time.

[Joods]

No, that's not even remotely good enough.  I specifically want Jacinta's body autopsied in a state-of-the-art professional environment that cannot be manipulated in any way by the RCC, and I want *you* to pay for it out of your own pocket.

You also seem to be having a remarkable amount of difficulty differentiating between ordinary claims such as a fight breaking out at a baseball game, and extraordinary claims such as the sun bobbing around in the sky without being noticed by astronomers.

(Of course, you probably also think that Mary gave birth as a virgin and later got whooshed up into the sky, that Jesus came back from the dead but makes a nice light snack at mass, and that you have something other than insentience awaiting you after your death.  *shrug*)

As someone who doesn't appear to believe in the incorruptibles, and given this phenomenon only occurs with devout Catholics, the question you should be asking yourself is how even a single incorrupt body could exist. It completely defies science no matter who's incorrupt body we are speaking about. They are on display all over Europe for you to go see. I am not the one having a problem understanding and believing in them, so it is up to you to go and see them. Next time you schedule a vacation, make it in Europe so you can go see them.

As for differentiating between ordinary and extraordinary claims, that is relative. Atheists seem to categorize many things as extraordinary that others wouldn't. Again, let's assume for the moment that the sun never bobbed up and down in the sky. The question then becomes, why did thousands of people submit testimonies saying they think it did?

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So if the body of a heretic or atheist were found to not decompose as expected, would that be a miracle, too?

Yes, that would be a miracle too. But given this phenomena only happens to devout Catholics, you need to ask yourself why. Not a single person in this forum has an answer to that and that's as much.

Oh em gee...

You really are this fucking stupid. 

This is great... I love how you keep coming back to this thread to prove your sheer stupidity. 

Please... entertain us some more. You continually prove to everyone here how religion poisons everything and how the brainwashed think.

[pabsta]

I've had discussions here before about the miracle of the sun. I find it very convincing and impossible to explain away as something other than a supernatural phenomenon. Someone here even said it was a conspiracy by the government (who was somehow able to predict that the sun would do weird things on that day at that time, months ahead of time) and they had the kids involved.

Given the posts in this thread, why do you find it so difficult to accept as a natural phenomenon?

The skeptical consensus can be roughly summarized as: There was a local atmospheric phenomenon (haziness that encouraged people to look at the sun, maybe a sun dog, and it was a very hot day) that caused some people to perceive the sun as 'moving around' when it actually wasn't. The effects of staring at the sun too long combined with this to cause more people to perceive the sun as 'moving around'. Combined with 'miracle fever', this sounds pretty plausible to me, and explains discrepancies like why astronomers didn't notice the sun moving, why the sun moving wasn't a disaster, and why some people present did not see the sun move. Why does it sound implausible to you?

You must be joking. If you aren't, you obviously haven't been reading the posts in this thread.

In July 2017 the 3 children publicly foretold that a lady told them she would perform a miracle 3 months later on October 13, at 12 noon at the cova, so that "the people would believe" (referring to believing the Catholic message she was giving to the children during that 6-month span). 70,000 people show up and there just HAPPENS to be a "local atmospheric phenomenon" at the SAME time, and that the SAME location, only visible in a 20 mile radius? Give me a break. Also, it was not a hot day, it was a day where it had been pouring rain all day. Also, if you read the testimonials, everyone says they know of no one who didn't see anything.

What a lame skeptical consensus.

[pocaracas]

Yes, and the 3 children can be proven to have existed, as can their public prediction of a miracle 3 months beforehand, as can thousands of people showing up at the Cova, as can the newspaper articles the following day, as can the countless number of testimonials that were submitted afterward. But ALL of that should be completely ignored and swept under the carpet simply because you don't believe what they're testimonials had to say? Absurdity. Like any jury would ignore all of that!

It is interesting to wonder what drew so many people to that ass end of the world.
Some kids had said it would be so? How did that word got out of that very skeptical small village?... remember? so skeptical they imprisoned the kids!
How would those skeptical adults have told a story to the outside in such a way that so many people thought it was a good idea to go there?

I can't believe all those folk went there based solely on the word of a few kids. Someone must have taken care of the propaganda, the advertising. Who? How?
This is a part of the story that I don't think I've ever heard told.

Care to enlighten me?

[Joods]

Given the posts in this thread, why do you find it so difficult to accept as a natural phenomenon?

The skeptical consensus can be roughly summarized as: There was a local atmospheric phenomenon (haziness that encouraged people to look at the sun, maybe a sun dog, and it was a very hot day) that caused some people to perceive the sun as 'moving around' when it actually wasn't. The effects of staring at the sun too long combined with this to cause more people to perceive the sun as 'moving around'. Combined with 'miracle fever', this sounds pretty plausible to me, and explains discrepancies like why astronomers didn't notice the sun moving, why the sun moving wasn't a disaster, and why some people present did not see the sun move. Why does it sound implausible to you?

You must be joking. If you aren't, you obviously haven't been reading the posts in this thread.

In July 2017 the 3 children publicly foretold that a lady told them she would perform a miracle 3 months later on October 13, at 12 noon at the cova, so that "the people would believe" (referring to believing the Catholic message she was giving to the children during that 6-month span). 70,000 people show up and there just HAPPENS to be a "local atmospheric phenomenon" at the SAME time, and that the SAME location, only visible in a 20 mile radius? Give me a break. Also, it was not a hot day, it was a day where it had been pouring rain all day. Also, if you read the testimonials, everyone says they know of no one who didn't see anything.

What a lame skeptical consensus.

bold mine

October 2017 hasn't happened yet. 

Nice try though.