Regarding The Flap Over Confederate Statues

[Thumpalumpacus]

Just so we're clear, I don't think of you that way at all. In the few years we've been interacting you've struck me as a decent and well-informed man, and not given over to extremism of any sort.

If something I wrote in this thread caused you to think I hold that opinion of you, you have my sincere apologies. I assure you I do not. We simply disagree on how the topic at hand should be handled, and I'm fine with that.

Thanks, Thumpy. I do try to keep the nuances of the issue in mind, but evidently, that didn't exactly work out this time.

I don't fault you for trying. As I said before, we just see it differently. To my mind, the historical nuances aren't germane insofar as those nuances aren't the reason for erecting the statues in the first place in almost every case.

And that means that it didn't change my mind. There are plenty of other readers and no doubt your points may be more convincing to them.

[bennyboy]

We have finally come to grips with the idea that the KKK paid for those statues with the intent of reminding the Negros where their place was in society. Should we continue that tradition?

That's a classic genetic fallacy. It doesn't matter where the statues came from-- if they were paid for by the KKK or by the Ghandi World Peace Trust Fund, they are memorials to great generals of the losing side. They are part of American culture, and sufficiently many American citizens see value in them as historical artifacts that they felt it worth demonstrating.

This is still what it comes down to-- the KKK et al are now a minority, and their getting theirs back-- they are being marginalized as they once marginalized others, and mocked as they once mocked others. I don't fail to see the justice in it, and tbh I doubt they do either, thought they won't much like it.

That being said, General Lee was in fact a great man-- a worthy opponent to the North, brave and clever. Much is to be learned from a man that great being so clearly on the wrong side of social philosophy, and we can learn more from a real consideration of his life and actions than we can from burning books.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Intention is everything when it comes to symbolism, Benny. This isn't difficult.

[bennyboy]

Intention is everything when it comes to symbolism, Benny. This isn't difficult.

"Intentional fallacy" is a thing.  Do you think the creator of the statue wanted to show "Lee, the great Champion of Slavery?"  If so, why doesn't he have a manacled negro boy walking behind his horse?

No. . . the guy was a great leader, and his men and the people in Southern communities admired him.  You don't have to start talking about symbolism and intent.

[Minimalist]

Pickett's Charge is one of the great military blunders of all times.  Especially for an army which was pretty much at the end of its logistical rope as Lee well knew.  He was a great leader when facing incompetent opponents.

Meanwhile, let's see if the Orange Fucktard signs this.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/09/congress...-to-trump/

Congress sends anti-white supremacist measure to Trump

Congress unanimously passed a resolution Tuesday condemning neo-Nazis, the KKK and other white nationalists that urges President Donald Trump to address hate groups after last month's deadly racially-charged violence in Charlottesville, Virginia.

If he signs it Bannon and his nazi bund will go nuts and if he doesn't everyone will go nuts.




Smile, Fuckface.

You're on Candid Camera.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

We have finally come to grips with the idea that the KKK paid for those statues with the intent of reminding the Negros where their place was in society. Should we continue that tradition?

That's a classic genetic fallacy.  It doesn't matter where the statues came from-- if they were paid for by the KKK or by the Ghandi World Peace Trust Fund, they are memorials to great generals of the losing side.  They are part of American culture, and sufficiently many American citizens see value in them as historical artifacts that they felt it worth demonstrating.

This is still what it comes down to-- the KKK et al are now a minority, and their getting theirs back-- they are being marginalized as they once marginalized others, and mocked as they once mocked others.  I don't fail to see the justice in it, and tbh I doubt they do either, thought they won't much like it.

That being said, General Lee was in fact a great man-- a worthy opponent to the North, brave and clever.  Much is to be learned from a man that great being so clearly on the wrong side of social philosophy, and we can learn more from a real consideration of his life and actions than we can from burning books.

Bullshit, they are used to remind blacks that they are still targets of the KKK.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Intention is everything when it comes to symbolism, Benny. This isn't difficult.

"Intentional fallacy" is a thing.  Do you think the creator of the statue wanted to show "Lee, the great Champion of Slavery?"  If so, why doesn't he have a manacled negro boy walking behind his horse?

lol, I don't think that at all, for precisely that reason.

You know what they wanted to show? "Lee, the Warrior". You know why? Because the message they wanted to send is "we went to war to defend our right to own you." The majority of those statues didn't go up in the years after the war to commemorate the valiant losses. They went up in the 30 years between 1890-1920, and the fifteen years between 1955-1970. Hopefully you're historically astute enough to assess the significance of those eras in American race relations.

No. . . the guy was a great leader, and his men and the people in Southern communities admired him.

Have you asked yourself why they admired him? If it was just for his leadership, they could have memorialized Patton, Scott, Ridgway, or many other great captains. Hell, they could have erected statues of George Washington, a Virginia boy.

This is a facile, self-serving explanation you're positing here, because you're deliberately ignoring what and who he led, and why.

You don't have to start talking about symbolism and intent.

We are talking about memorials. Symbolism comes with the territory. We don't erect monuments to men and causes we don't appreciate. Whether you in your Canadian whiteness understand it or not, those statues have a message to American blacks, and it ain't, "Golly, wasn't that Bobby Lee a fine fellow?"

[FatAndFaithless]

Like I said. Benny --> deep end.

[The Grand Nudger]

"Intentional fallacy" is a thing.  Do you think the creator of the statue wanted to show "Lee, the great Champion of Slavery?"  If so, why doesn't he have a manacled negro boy walking behind his horse?

No. . . the guy was a great leader, and his men and the people in Southern communities admired him.  You don't have to start talking about symbolism and intent.

Yes, Benny, that's -exactly- what the creators of the statues wanted to remind the darkies of. Sure, the statues are part of american culture. That part that was super pissed that blacks were suddenly people and, later, that they had rights.

[bennyboy]

We are talking about memorials. Symbolism comes with the territory. We don't erect monuments to men and causes we don't appreciate. Whether you in your Canadian whiteness understand it or not, those statues have a message to American blacks, and it ain't, "Golly, wasn't that Bobby Lee a fine fellow?"

Are you sure there's really such a deep concern about negative symbolism? Might want to ask the natives, my own ancestors included, how they feel about the statues of Custer, Columbus, and Andrew Jackson all over the place. Fuck it, might even want to look into Lincoln's stance on the natives, and tear that guy's statues down too.

See, here's the way I see it: if someone is in a position of power or leadership, he's probably fucked somebody. Our social network is so deeply intertwined that even peaceful, law-abiding folk are complicit in horrible crimes.

But I'm okay with that. If I was nearby a park with a General Lee statue (or Lincoln or Tecumsah), I'd love to go over and see what those fuckers looked like. It's interesting. I'd read the little plaque, learn a little something, and then spread my picnic blanket on the grass.

Now, if you want to know if I think black people should be treated equally-- fuck yes. My western teaching staff here in Korea are currently 80% black (not counting my white self in the metric)-- not because I'm trying to fight the good battle, because I was sensible enough to realize they were the best people I had access to at the time of hire. You want symbols? Check out the long list of zeroes on the teachers' paychecks. Those are symbols worth really fighting for.

I'm a little uncomfortable because it's looking like I'm a KKK guy or something. But that's not it-- I value cultural diversity, and that means including all the main players in history as visible icons. It means letting even Southern racists have their voice, and some avenue for their cultural expression. Put up a goddamned statue of Hitler in Berlin so the Jews have something to piss on. Put up one of Charlie Manson. Put up Trump or Justin Bieber. Then pass me a beer and throw me a frisbee.