This Has to Stop

[beepete]

I am genuinely sorry if I gave the impression that I thought people on this forum where a bunch of idiots, it is clearly not the case. After spending 30 years of my life clearly believing something was 100 percent true despite the evidence to the contrary, it is me that is the idiot.
After spends many hours watching people with an opposing worldview to mine the penny has started to drop and to be honest it is a real shock. I'm not even really sure that I know why I am on this forum. My click of friends are predominantly Christian and I now feel like a hypocrite and a pariah when I am around them (which is no fault of theirs - they have no idea what is going on in my mind and treat me just as kindly as ever). My first point of contact when I came here was Astonished - and to be honest he just confirmed many (no doubt irrational) prejudices I have about non-theists. Anyway, that's enough of that. I really like Carl Sagan and the way he was able to dismantle fallacies that people build about themselves without attacking them personally. The world was a better place for having someone like him on it.

[Kernel Sohcahtoa]

You can link videos so the video actually shows up in the post rather than linking to it. Also it would be polite to at least describe what it is you're substituting for your own words.

Rules are rules (just ask Moses - seems we all need them and I was unaware of the link violation). It was a small clip by Carl Sagan on religion, science and the cosmos in general. It was not a substitution for my own words - Carl Sagan was far too articulate and clever for that. I had started to form the opinion (incorrectly it now seems) that I would discover people of his intellectual caliber and rationality on this forum.Perhaps they are here somewhere, but I'm yet to find him. Thanks for the tip on being polite.

To my knowledge (please forgive my ignorance if I'm mistaken and please correct me), humanity has yet to come up with a universally accepted definition of what intelligence actually is.  However, via David Wechsler, a pioneer of intelligence testing and founder of the WAIS, if we define intelligence as "the aggregate or global capacity of the individual to act purposefully, to think rationally and to deal effectively with his environment,” then IMO, there are definitely people on this forum who fit this description and probably fall into the very superior category of intelligence as per the WAIS; it's just a matter of having the patience to find them and to be open-minded/inquisitive enough to appreciate their insights. 

P.S. based on my observations, intellectual giftedness comes in many forms, and if an individual is too preoccupied with their own definitions/preconceptions of intelligence, then it is very easy to overlook someone who is intellectually talented in an uncommon and highly interesting way.

[emjay]

I have the feeling I'm going to, or already have, lost a lot of friends from posting in this thread. Have I lost you too Losty?

Emjay...I think you're the sweetest. That's why I named you Squishy. I don't think you've been an asshole in this thread (or any thread for that matter) at all. You know how to have a different opinion without wishing death on someone. I haven't thoroughly examined this thread, but what I've read from you I've agreed with.

In a more general way of looking at it, I agree with some of the things astonished thinks too (not all but some). What I disagree with is the way he treats people.

You haven't lost me as a friend. I love ya, Squishy <3

Thanks Losty I just wish I'd never posted in this thread... all it's brought out is negativity

I really don't know what I can say about this whole situation. I can't deny I admire outspoken anti-theists because they have more confidence than I could ever have... except on a really bad day. I didn't see much difference between Astonished and other swear-every-other-word anti-theists like Minimalist, but yeah there is a difference if he's making it personal and wishing violence on everyone. But I still think he's made a lot of good points since he came here... it's just that delivery could be improved... but I'm in no hurry to ask him, or Minimalist for that matter, to be more polite without expecting a shit-load of f-bombs to be coming my way It's not my way of talking but each to their own on that... that's the only way it can be.

[KevinM1]

I am genuinely sorry if I gave the impression that I thought people on this forum where a bunch of idiots, it is clearly not the case. After spending 30 years of my life clearly believing something was 100 percent true despite the evidence to the contrary, it is me that is the idiot.
After spends many hours watching people with an opposing worldview to mine the penny has started to drop and to be honest it is a real shock. I'm not even really sure that I know why I am on this forum. My click of friends are predominantly Christian and I now feel like a hypocrite and a pariah when I am around them (which is no fault of theirs - they have no idea what is going on in my mind and treat me just as kindly as ever). My first point of contact when I came here was Astonished - and to be honest he just confirmed many (no doubt irrational) prejudices I have about non-theists. Anyway, that's enough of that. I really like Carl Sagan and the way he was able to dismantle fallacies that people build about themselves without attacking them personally. The world was a better place for having someone like him on it.

I think the number 1 thing to realize is that atheism - a lack of belief in a god or god - is really the only thing atheists share. Atheism comes in two main varieties:

1. Agnostic atheism - open to the possibility of something, but hasn't encountered any proof of it, so lacks belief. Reserves the right to change their mind when presented with new evidence.

2. Gnostic atheism - there is no god of any kind (it's an assertion whereas agnostic atheism is not).

There are, of course, other nuances (I'm more or less an apatheist stemming from ignosticism), but those tend to be the main branches.

I say all this because theists often come here with this view that we're all the same. Yes, there are frothing neckbeards, and, yes, a lot (most?) of us are secular humanists. But there's no atheist creed or hierarchy or anything else. No doctrine. Even on this forum we have Trump voters and social/political conservatives. We have people who are gung-ho about their atheism, to the point of activism, and those that don't really care. People who used to be religious and deconverted, and those who never believed in the first place.

We're pretty varied once you get to know us. We're just people who don't believe in a god. For a lot of us, it's pretty far down the list of what defines us as people.

[Astonished]

Emjay...I think you're the sweetest. That's why I named you Squishy. I don't think you've been an asshole in this thread (or any thread for that matter) at all. You know how to have a different opinion without wishing death on someone. I haven't thoroughly examined this thread, but what I've read from you I've agreed with.

In a more general way of looking at it, I agree with some of the things astonished thinks too (not all but some). What I disagree with is the way he treats people.

You haven't lost me as a friend. I love ya, Squishy <3

Thanks Losty I just wish I'd never posted in this thread... all it's brought out is negativity

I really don't know what I can say about this whole situation. I can't deny I admire outspoken anti-theists because they have more confidence than I could ever have... except on a really bad day. I didn't see much difference between Astonished and other swear-every-other-word anti-theists like Minimalist, but yeah there is a difference if he's making it personal and wishing violence on everyone. But I still think he's made a lot of good points since he came here... it's just that delivery could be improved... but I'm in no hurry to ask him, or Minimalist for that matter, to be more polite without expecting a shit-load of f-bombs to be coming my way It's not my way of talking but each to their own on that... that's the only way it can be.

I'd have actually held back quite a bit since I joined the site if I hadn't seen Min so wild and freely throwing the well-deserved middle fingers around so I just enjoyed the freedom that seemed to prompt. Perhaps some more restrictive rules on content would have encouraged more docile discussions. But they'd be less fun.

Bottom line, I see this kind of predatory infection of young minds as harmful in the extreme and would not bat an eye to see someone willfully and malignantly doing that being hit by lightning if that meant stopping them from inflicting a lifelong impediment to rational thinking (among other things) on an unwitting innocent. Because the consequences of that harm inevitably reaches beyond the singular mind of their victims and perpetuates this madness across the globe and across generations like the most pernicious virus we've ever discovered, it's more than just a matter of one person being victimized. If there was some innocuous and harmless way of preventing this indoctrination from affecting children, then whatever, again, I'll just point and laugh at the brainwashers' fruitless efforts while they tear their hair out as their threats of hell and guilt trips about sin fall on deaf ears. But since that's not realistic (there's no chemical vaccine against that kind of psychological poison), and none of the agents of indoctrination seem to even consider that they might be doing wrong in any way, and no legislators are going to do shit to protect the rights of these kids from being violated, it's impossible not to feel like this injustice deserves to be remedied by some force of nature, whatever form that might take. It's just too bad some actual cosmic justice system doesn't exist. I wouldn't approve of something like hell, since punishment after the fact is not going to fix the damn problem, just something that stays the hands (or mouths) of anyone trying to make children believe in the worst sort of lies imaginable.

[emjay]

Thanks Losty I just wish I'd never posted in this thread... all it's brought out is negativity

I really don't know what I can say about this whole situation. I can't deny I admire outspoken anti-theists because they have more confidence than I could ever have... except on a really bad day. I didn't see much difference between Astonished and other swear-every-other-word anti-theists like Minimalist, but yeah there is a difference if he's making it personal and wishing violence on everyone. But I still think he's made a lot of good points since he came here... it's just that delivery could be improved... but I'm in no hurry to ask him, or Minimalist for that matter, to be more polite without expecting a shit-load of f-bombs to be coming my way It's not my way of talking but each to their own on that... that's the only way it can be.

I'd have actually held back quite a bit since I joined the site if I hadn't seen Min so wild and freely throwing the well-deserved middle fingers around so I just enjoyed the freedom that seemed to prompt. Perhaps some more restrictive rules on content would have encouraged more docile discussions. But they'd be less fun.

Bottom line, I see this kind of predatory infection of young minds as harmful in the extreme and would not bat an eye to see someone willfully and malignantly doing that being hit by lightning if that meant stopping them from inflicting a lifelong impediment to rational thinking (among other things) on an unwitting innocent. Because the consequences of that harm inevitably reaches beyond the singular mind of their victims and perpetuates this madness across the globe and across generations like the most pernicious virus we've ever discovered, it's more than just a matter of one person being victimized. If there was some innocuous and harmless way of preventing this indoctrination from affecting children, then whatever, again, I'll just point and laugh at the brainwashers' fruitless efforts while they tear their hair out as their threats of hell and guilt trips about sin fall on deaf ears. But since that's not realistic (there's no chemical vaccine against that kind of psychological poison), and none of the agents of indoctrination seem to even consider that they might be doing wrong in any way, and no legislators are going to do shit to protect the rights of these kids from being violated, it's impossible not to feel like this injustice deserves to be remedied by some force of nature, whatever form that might take. It's just too bad some actual cosmic justice system doesn't exist. I wouldn't approve of something like hell, since punishment after the fact is not going to fix the damn problem, just something that stays the hands (or mouths) of anyone trying to make children believe in the worst sort of lies imaginable.

I don't know what to say. I'm as frustrated as you are over the issue of indoctrination... and it's lesser but similar equivalents. In my own case, ultimately this Christian education has robbed me of the peace of mind that would come from being an atheist with all the same views I have but starting from a completely neutral standpoint. So I can only look at some of the atheists on this site with envy for having never been exposed to it in the first place, and thus being able to consider all their beliefs their own.

And I'm frustrated that my own points on this have gone unaddressed. So tbh I don't know how cynical I should be about the motivations of theists in ignoring these points... ie simply do they care or not if their child grows up and feels like I do? Do they care if their child grows up with bias? Do they understand it? Does it figure in any way into their understanding of what it means to accept something as true, and the subject's part/responsibility in that belief and therefore how much credit should be given to the subject for that belief (by God for instance)? Is all belief equal in their eyes... both for themselves and for how they perceive god to be judging... such that beliefs under brain damage, the influence of drugs, hypnosis/suggestion, bias, or purely rational thought are all the same thing? Basically, I do not know whether the consensus among theists that have read what I've wrote, is basically happiness or sadness that I'm lumbered with Christian bias against my will. If it's care for me, or for the person in my hypothetical position... ie their child..., then that's a step in the right direction, but if it's gladness that I've got the bug as it were, 'for my own good'... then that's where the problem lies. I fear it is the latter.

But anyway, that's how I feel about it. As to what to do about it, there's not much that can be done. It is the way it is, and destructive or no, clearly raging about it makes no difference; and when has it ever? All it does is make everyone double down, and any receptivity to ideas is lost. You said yourself that I was being heard when I was being 'eloquent' so surely one hearing is better than a hundred unheard and therefore pointless rants? Honestly, how many people are going to go away from being yelled at and be inspired to listen to the yeller's arguments, let alone change their approach. Answer. No one. So free advice, tone it down, keep it abstract, talk about it, don't yell about it. That's all I can say really, but obviously it's entirely up to you whether you listen to me or not.

[Succubus]

Lol nope equal

I imagine if a theist had come in here and started a thread saying he hated all atheists and accusing atheists of child abuse for conveying atheism to their children and calling all of you "fucked up in the head", it would have been met with quite a bit more outrage....

Link?

[Catholic_Lady]

I imagine if a theist had come in here and started a thread saying he hated all atheists and accusing atheists of child abuse for conveying atheism to their children and calling all of you "fucked up in the head", it would have been met with quite a bit more outrage....

Link?

Um, it's the OP of this thread that you are commenting on lol.

https://atheistforums.org/thread-51152.html

[Huggy Bear]

So...look, I hate religious folk, that's no secret, and it's not that I want them to get run over by a bus, but...I'd rather see that than see them indoctrinate one more child. The bible is already obscene enough as it is and anyone reading it straight to a child should be institutionalized, but to actually try (and fail) to turn it into a presentable children's book is...is there a word for worse than obscene?

The irony of this thread is that the most heinous acts of indoctrination, rape and ultimately murder perpetrated by a religious figure in the last 40 years (on American citizens at least) was an atheist, killing over 900 people, children included.

So please OP get off your atheist high horse.

[Succubus]

Link?

Um, it's the OP of this thread that you are commenting on lol.

https://atheistforums.org/thread-51152.html

I knew where it was from, it's just that he didn't say 'all' that in his OP. Mebbie I'm being a bit pedantic.