Student sits during pledge of allegiance; gets chair kicked out from beneath him

[pocaracas]

I moved to the United States from Brazil when I was 7 years old. I am quite aware. I remember my first day of school in the US when everyone stood up, put their hand over their hearts, and recited something while facing the flag. I remember assuming it was some kind of special day for the country, like independence day or something. But once it happened every day, I caught on that it was just something Americans did daily. 

I remember thinking it was dumb ever since I was that young. I would stand up but I didn't put my hand over my heart or say anything. I just stood there without doing or saying a word, and thought I was so cool for it. I was actually like that all through school, and it wasn't until I started getting a little older and more mature that I really started to reflect and appreciate this country and the fact that I'm lucky enough to have moved here from a 3rd world country. America isn't perfect by any means, but no place is. But having seen and lived in other parts of the world, and having many family members still living in other parts of the world and hearing about it and visiting it, I realize how fortunate I am and am humbled by it and by all those who work so hard at making this place what it is. Anti American sentiments really irk me. 

No one should be forced to stand, or bullied in any way shape or form for not standing. But am I going to think it's cute when they don't? No. I was one of those kids at one point. And I look back at myself and think my dismissiveness was ungrateful and disrespectful.

(edit to add - also it's not 2 minutes, it's more like 15 seconds. not sure why i said 2 minutes)

Yeah, but.... is it really being disrespectful or ungrateful to not recite some words at the flag of your host country?
Not many other countries in the World "force" their kids to do that... and their people seem to enjoy their own countries quite well.
And I offer myself as an anecdotal example: in spite of Portugal's many problems, I don't think I'd ever say the US is a better country.
Some things are better in the US, certainly, others are worse... and, from my (very likely biased) perspective, the worse things outweigh the better ones.

[Court Jester]

I'm a hard core republican that has canceled my Indiana colts season tickets for myself and my customers for kneeling bs, but that's some bad parenting on the kicker's part.

This bullshit of vilifying protest, is childish peer pressure on a political scale. 

The soldiers of WW2 fought against a state that demanded blind loyalty. If you want to live in states that vilify dissent and shame, try Saudi Arabia or North Korea. 

The ritual is just that. The Constitution and oath of office are LAW, and part of that is upholding the individual's free speech, kneeling isn't dishonoring that concept, it is not saying those who do it hate America. It is very American to speak to power and point out problems. 

I vomit when I read posts like this knowing you'd look at the history footage of this, then bitch about Americans protesting here. Is this what you want America to become? 

I don't care about protests at all. I've never had one change my opinion on any subject in the least. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, as do I. I think the parents of the kid that kicked the chair out should probably discipline their kid a little better and teach him to accept other's opinions as their own. Doesn't mean he has to be friends with the other kid either.

Same with the football tickets. They have every right to take all the knees that they want. I don't care. They can all spank off and splooge on the side line during the national anthem for all I care. That would actually be comical as hell to see really. I also have the right to let my eight seats sit empty this season and save the money next season.

[Catholic_Lady]

I moved to the United States from Brazil when I was 7 years old. I am quite aware. I remember my first day of school in the US when everyone stood up, put their hand over their hearts, and recited something while facing the flag. I remember assuming it was some kind of special day for the country, like independence day or something. But once it happened every day, I caught on that it was just something Americans did daily. 

I remember thinking it was dumb ever since I was that young. I would stand up but I didn't put my hand over my heart or say anything. I just stood there without doing or saying a word, and thought I was so cool for it. I was actually like that all through school, and it wasn't until I started getting a little older and more mature that I really started to reflect and appreciate this country and the fact that I'm lucky enough to have moved here from a 3rd world country. America isn't perfect by any means, but no place is. But having seen and lived in other parts of the world, and having many family members still living in other parts of the world and hearing about it and visiting it, I realize how fortunate I am and am humbled by it and by all those who work so hard at making this place what it is. Anti American sentiments really irk me. 

No one should be forced to stand, or bullied in any way shape or form for not standing. But am I going to think it's cute when they don't? No. I was one of those kids at one point. And I look back at myself and think my dismissiveness was ungrateful and disrespectful.

(edit to add - also it's not 2 minutes, it's more like 15 seconds. not sure why i said 2 minutes)

Yeah, but.... is it really being disrespectful or ungrateful to not recite some words at the flag of your host country?
Not many other countries in the World "force" their kids to do that... and their people seem to enjoy their own countries quite well.
And I offer myself as an anecdotal example: in spite of Portugal's many problems, I don't think I'd ever say the US is a better country.
Some things are better in the US, certainly, others are worse... and, from my (very likely biased) perspective, the worse things outweigh the better ones.

In my opinion, yes. I think it is disrespectful unless you have some kind of legitimate reason or cause.

As I said, I don't think anyone should be forced to stand. Just don't expect me to like it when someone doesn't, is all I'm saying.

[henryp]

I'm a veteran.  I can't be bothered to stand for the pledge, or any other coerced display of patriotism.  Am I disrespectful to veterans?

I'd guess plenty of veterans would find your not standing/saluting/whatever to be disrespectful.  Your intentions may not be to disrespect them, but that wouldn't change how some would feel, I'm sure.

I think it boils down to more of a social grace?  Grace isn't quite right.  I'm not sure what the word is.  Things like take your hat for the anthem.  Shake hands when you meet someone.  Not wearing crocs to a wedding.   Arbitrary actions that are for whatever reason displays of respect.

Even though their is no logical connection between revealing the top of my head for a song, and respecting the military, it's still a thing we've settled on to mean something.

[Silver]

I'm a veteran.  I can't be bothered to stand for the pledge, or any other coerced display of patriotism.  Am I disrespectful to veterans?

I'd guess plenty of veterans would find your not standing/saluting/whatever to be disrespectful.  Your intentions may not be to disrespect them, but that wouldn't change how some would feel, I'm sure.

I think it boils down to more of a social grace?  Grace isn't quite right.  I'm not sure what the word is.  Things like take your hat for the anthem.  Shake hands when you meet someone.  Not wearing crocs to a wedding.   Arbitrary actions that are for whatever reason displays of respect.

Even though their is no logical connection between revealing the top of my head for a song, and respecting the military, it's still a thing we've settled on to mean something.

The word you're probably looking for is etiquette. Social etiquette, of which I ignore on a regular basis as outdated social constructs.

[Tiberius]

It's weird when it comes to kids because they probably don't understand the words they are saying. Even if you don't force kids to say it (which legally, schools cannot), kids succumb to peer pressure more than anyone, and if most other kids are doing it, they will probably feel left out and do it too, so even when it's not forced it still kinda is.

There's no reason for kids to pledge allegiance to their country in the first place, we don't ask kids to defend it, they can't vote or make any kind of social / economic changes. The only reason they get kids to say it is probably to instill some form of nationalism at an early age.

[Silver]

It's weird when it comes to kids because they probably don't understand the words they are saying. Even if you don't force kids to say it (which legally, schools cannot), kids succumb to peer pressure more than anyone, and if most other kids are doing it, they will probably feel left out and do it too, so even when it's not forced it still kinda is.

There's no reason for kids to pledge allegiance to their country in the first place, we don't ask kids to defend it, they can't vote or make any kind of social / economic changes. The only reason they get kids to say it is probably to instill some form of nationalism at an early age.

Which makes them precisely ripe for indoctrination.

You ever see those kids at protests holding those nasty, horrendous signs? They have no what they're doing there, but the parents are priming them for ignorance at an early age.

[SteelCurtain]

I'm a veteran. I can't be bothered to stand for the pledge, or any other coerced display of patriotism. Am I disrespectful to veterans?

Me too. I served so that people have the freedom to do what they wish with their free time and person, so long as they do not hurt other people. This idea that the pledge (especially in a school setting) has anything to do with the military or veterans is just a forced connection you've made in your brain, C_L.

Also, I don't think anyone truly just "can't be bothered." With backlash like this chair kicking possible (and maybe probable), I'm pretty sure anyone remaining seated during the ritual is doing so for a reason. I do have a reason(and so, I would say, does CD)---I think coerced acts of patriotism are foundationally un-American. They smack of Soviet propaganda rituals or Hitler Youth ceremonies. Having everyone perform this rite is odd, and the fact that Republicans, the people who are supposed to dogmatically prefer freedom over anything else should tell you that it is only divisive political doublethink that gets us here.

It's really just the can't be bothered attitude. If it's a form of protest/disagreement or even a religious thing, I wouldn't take issue with it.

I can't imagine someone being too lazy to stand for the pledge but then wanting to join the military, but if someone did I'd find it disrespectful just the same. Even if they had their veteran family's support or w/e. Which would also be strange bc I can't imagine anyone supporting their kid being lazy about something.

(emphasis is mine))

I knew guys in the Army who would run (yes, run) to get inside before reveille or retreat so they wouldn't have to stand and salute. In all cases I knew of, it was pure "can't be bothered" that drove them.

Jaysus if this isn't the truth. Sailors and Marines in my departments/squads would plan their movements just so they didn't have a chance of being caught outside during TAPS. I had sailors in my office 2-3x a week with excuses to get out of Colors duty, which should be an honor. These attitudes are pervasive in the military.

Ironically, the same guys that are running when they hear the call to TAPS are probably the ones who are the loudest ones about 'disrespecting the flag.'

It is perfectly okay to take a step back and examine these traditions and decide for yourself (not what you've always been taught) how to move forward. No one owes their country anything but taxes. My country doesn't need respect. I love some parts of this country, but others need serious work. I'll withhold dogmatic patriotism until I feel it has paid what it owes me---liberty and justice for all.

[Jackalope]

I'm a veteran.  I can't be bothered to stand for the pledge, or any other coerced display of patriotism.  Am I disrespectful to veterans?

I'd guess plenty of veterans would find your not standing/saluting/whatever to be disrespectful.  Your intentions may not be to disrespect them, but that wouldn't change how some would feel, I'm sure.

I think it boils down to more of a social grace?  Grace isn't quite right.  I'm not sure what the word is.  Things like take your hat for the anthem.  Shake hands when you meet someone.  Not wearing crocs to a wedding.   Arbitrary actions that are for whatever reason displays of respect.

Even though their is no logical connection between revealing the top of my head for a song, and respecting the military, it's still a thing we've settled on to mean something.

...and plenty wouldn't.

I certainly can't help it if anyone sees refusing to participate in coerced nationalistic virtue signaling to be offensive. Quite frankly, I see no reason to kowtow to their demands.

[Joods]

Let's face it. It's not disrespectful even if you're not protesting.

I think it is disrespectful if you are not protesting for a particular cause. Not standing up for no other reason than just because you "can't be bothered" is disrespectful. So many people have died for this country and risked their lives for it. Meanwhile someone else can't even be bothered to stand up for 2 minutes? I see that as disrespectdul to those people and especially to those people's families who have to deal with the fear for, and absense/loss of, their loved ones.

The people that actually "died for this country" under the term of "freedom" for this country, did so well over one hundred years ago. People who serve today are not serving to fight for our freedoms. Those freedoms were established long before our great grandparents were even thoughts in their parents eyes. Servicemen and women today, enlist for different reasons so to continue using the excuse that our current (going back 100 years go at least) military forces are still "fighting for our freedom" is bullshit. 

What is disrespectful is to try and use shame and guilt on anyone who doesn't want to stand during the pledge. There are no laws on any books in this land that require or demand that any US citizen stand during the pledge of allegiance. 

Here's an article from the FFRF that proves as much: No. You don't have to stand.

Yes, CL, your husband is in the military. But if you think he's in there to fight for our  freedoms, you are wrong. No one government or group of people pose that much of a threat to the United States or her Constitution, that we have to go to war for that today. And before anyone says otherwise, you're still wrong if you think that going to someone else's country to fight in a war, is fighting for OUR freedoms. If anyone is still insistent on saying different, then they need to read up on the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence and learn something. 

The people who have a problem with those protesting against the pledge, need to get over themselves and learn that protesters have just as much of a right to sit as those in opposition have, to stand. You want to stand? Great. You do that. But you don't get to trample on someone else's right to sit because you don't like that they're sitting. The Supreme Court has already made that much clear. For those who seem bothered that people are sitting and not actually protesting anything - how about learning this (taken from the linked article in my post): 

After divisive court battles, the U.S. Supreme Court issued an eloquent ruling in 1943, which is the prevailing law today, assuring students they do not have to recite or participate in the Pledge of Allegiance. The pledge under dispute in the case was accompanied by a "stiff-arm" salute. Students who did not salute were found guilty of "insubordination" and could be expelled. The Court ruled such abuses unconstitutional.

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein.

"We think the actions

of the local authorities in compelling the flag salute and pledge transcends constitutional limitations on their power and invades the sphere of intellect and spirit which it is the purpose of the First Amendment to our Constitution to reserve from all official control."

West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)