Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?

[KevinM1]

Isn’t it more accurate to say god loaned his son?  I mean, he did get better a few days later.

Setting aside death by crucifixion, what was it like for an omniscient mind to physically bear all the sins of mankind past, present, and future all at the same time? When you think about it, God willing endured something unimaginable to us that would change him (by having the experience) in a less than positive way.

When I think about it, I consider it fiction.

[possibletarian]

If I -know- that you're going to turn left...can you turn right? If you can.....just what did I know, again?  Not that it matters either way.  God doesn't have to know a damned thing for this whole redemptive scheme to be bunk...and by the looks of the redemptive scheme..."not a damned thing" seems like an accurate summary of what god knows.

This isn't hard to understand--you should be able to keep up.

God does not know that you turned right (so there is no fact of the matter for him to know), he can anticipate, without error, all the steps leading up to your decision--including the way you think--so what he knows is what you will decide.  Just like I know that my wife will choose chocolate over vanilla except with a infinite mind with all knowable facts and counterfactuals available to him.

Then that simply brings us back to asking, why did he allow people to be born, whom he knew would suffer eternally ?

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If I -know- that you're going to turn left...can you turn right? If you can.....just what did I know, again?  Not that it matters either way.  God doesn't have to know a damned thing for this whole redemptive scheme to be bunk...and by the looks of the redemptive scheme..."not a damned thing" seems like an accurate summary of what god knows.

This isn't hard to understand--you should be able to keep up.

God does not know that you turned right (so there is no fact of the matter for him to know), he can anticipate, without error, all the steps leading up to your decision--including the way you think--so what he knows is what you will decide.  Just like I know that my wife will choose chocolate over vanilla except with a infinite mind with all knowable facts and counterfactuals available to him.

Bold and Italics mine*

The what is prophecy then if not god knowing what you will do ?  How do you separate god predicting with absolute certainty, and knowing, and therefore responsibility ?
How could I have a choice if god 'knew' what a person would choose, does that person then exist for the purpose of hell only ?

[SteveII]

This isn't hard to understand--you should be able to keep up.

God does not know that you turned right (so there is no fact of the matter for him to know), he can anticipate, without error, all the steps leading up to your decision--including the way you think--so what he knows is what you will decide.  Just like I know that my wife will choose chocolate over vanilla except with a infinite mind with all knowable facts and counterfactuals available to him.

Then that simply brings us back to asking, why did he allow people to be born, whom he knew would suffer eternally ?

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This isn't hard to understand--you should be able to keep up.

God does not know that you turned right (so there is no fact of the matter for him to know), he can anticipate, without error, all the steps leading up to your decision--including the way you think--so what he knows is what you will decide.  Just like I know that my wife will choose chocolate over vanilla except with a infinite mind with all knowable facts and counterfactuals available to him.

Bold and Italics mine*

The what is prophecy then if not god knowing what you will do ?  How do you separate god predicting with absolute certainty, and knowing ?

You didn't read carefully enough. God does not know that you turned right. God knows that you will choose to turn right (for the reasons I described above). The difference between the two is important because it removes the whole objection that we couldn't have turned left because God already knew something to be true. Is there a difference between predicting with absolute certainty and knowing? I don't think so.

[LadyForCamus]

If the being who wields all the power and makes all the decisions regarding existence and creation knows what you're going to do before you do it, and goes ahead with creating you as is anyway, then no; you have no control in any meaningful sense of the word.  Your fate was decided for you before you were even a sparkle in your mother's eye.  To be all/powerful, and all-knowing is to have total control.

That does not make sense. All-knowing and all-powerful do not in any way limit free will. God knows what will happen not because he has seen it, but because he can anticipate all of the steps leading up to you freely choosing to do something. Free will just means that you are choosing an action that is not causally determined by factors outside of yourself--not that no one knows what you are going to choose.

I feel like I'm not explaining my thoughts properly.

So, god is sitting around contemplating creating existence and people.  He, I dunno, imagines what he would like in a creation.  The instant he does so, he sees/understands exactly how the entire scenario is going to play out, including the choices and fates of every single human being who would end up existing. Now that he understands how plan A will go, he has to make some decisions.  I'll posit some options below:

* Go forward with plan A anyway, knowing how many of his "children" he'll be damning to an eternity of suffering.

* Perhaps a plan B.  Same as plan A, minus hell.

* Plan C.  Don't go through with it at all, and save everyone's soul in an instant.

* Plan D. Something else.  Anything else.  Make purple smurfs who are morally perfect and incapable of sin.  He's god; he can literally do anything.

But, God chooses plan A for us, doesn't he?  Where was our choice; our will in all of this?  We had none.  We were never meaningfully in control of our existence. God picked what he wanted for our souls out of an infinite number of possibilities, knowing how it would play out, and said, "this is the future I've chosen for you."  Please explain to me again, how are we free?

[KevinM1]

It's funny that we get the blame for being sin-innate. You'd think the fault would lie with the creator, not the creation....

[possibletarian]

No, they're not. I think, therefore I am. If god determined our every thought, then we don't exist in any meaningful way.

Not so.  Taking Descartes at his word, the presence of thoughts would cause you to exist.  You'd essentially be your god's puppet, and your existence as a puppet could still be in some way meaningful to your god.

Calvinists have built a whole theology around this, Of course they still have the ridiculous problem of a god that would do that.
The scientific opinion is now favouring the  no free will scenario

I've just read Sam Harris's book 'Free Will' (well it's a paper really, small and easy to read) that seems to lay this out in easy understandable terms.

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It's funny that we get the blame for being sin-innate.  You'd think the fault would lie with the creator, not the creation....

It would in any reasonable scenario you could imagine.

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Then that simply brings us back to asking, why did he allow people to be born, whom he knew would suffer eternally ?

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Bold and Italics mine*

The what is prophecy then if not god knowing what you will do ?  How do you separate god predicting with absolute certainty, and knowing ?

You didn't read carefully enough. God does not know that you turned right. God knows that you will choose to turn right (for the reasons I described above). The difference between the two is important because it removes the whole objection that we couldn't have turned left because God already knew something to be true. Is there a difference between predicting with absolute certainty and knowing? I don't think so.

Wonderful, then why allow those people to be born at all ? what purpose will it serve ?
The point being that for those who believe in neither hell, nor god, they are not consciously choosing or rejecting either.

[SteveII]

That does not make sense. All-knowing and all-powerful do not in any way limit free will. God knows what will happen not because he has seen it, but because he can anticipate all of the steps leading up to you freely choosing to do something. Free will just means that you are choosing an action that is not causally determined by factors outside of yourself--not that no one knows what you are going to choose.

I feel like I'm not explaining my thoughts properly.

So, god is sitting around contemplating creating existence and people.  He, I dunno, imagines what he would like in a creation.  The instant he does so, he sees/understands exactly how the entire scenario is going to play out, including the choices and fates of every single human being who would end up existing.  Now that he understands how plan A will go, he has to make some decisions.  I'll posit some options below:

* Go forward with plan A anyway, knowing how many of his "children" he'll be damning to an eternity of suffering.

* Perhaps a plan B.  Same as plan A, minus hell.

* Plan C.  Don't go through with it at all, and save everyone's soul in an instant.

* Plan D.  Something else.  Anything else.  Make purple smurfs who are morally perfect and incapable of sin.  He's god; he can literally do anything.

But, God chooses plan A for us, doesn't he?  Where was our choice; our will in all of this?  We had none.  We were never meaningfully in control of our existence. God picked what he wanted for our souls out of an infinite number of possibilities, knowing how it would play out, and said, "this is the future I've chosen for you."  Please explain to me again, how are we free?

Plan A includes creating us with free will. This is important because it seems thinking, rational beings capable of choice, morality, and a real relationship between creator and creature seems to be the pinnacle of anything anyone could ever create--including God. Free will entails the possibility of sin and the certainty that many will choose poorly.

Plan B is not possible. Holiness and justice are essential (couldn't have been any other way) to God. They are perfections. Sin (from A) creates the barrier because of his Holiness and a need to pay the penalty because of his justice. It seems vicarious redemption has its limits in that it must be freely accepted. 

Plan C -- God chose to create thinking, rational beings capable of choice, morality, and a real relationship between creator and creatures. I, for one am not going to whine that I should never have had existed and my wife and children shouldn't have existed because other people make the wrong choice. The potentially infinite goodness available to all, chosen by a minority does not make God's choice to create everything problematic from a logical nor a moral standpoint.

Plan D -- you wouldn't have the goals achieved in Plan A. 

Yes, God chose plan A for us. I for one, am glad he did. He did NOT chose a future for us -- only that we had a future to chose. Listen, there is nothing illogical about any of this. You objection is on an emotional level. I understand that. But it really isn't the problem you imagine for Christianity. 

How are we free? Free will is choosing an action that is not causally determined by factors outside of ourselves. As I have explained a post or two ago, God knowing what we are going to chose does not impact our ability to choose.

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You didn't read carefully enough. God does not know that you turned right. God knows that you will choose to turn right (for the reasons I described above). The difference between the two is important because it removes the whole objection that we couldn't have turned left because God already knew something to be true. Is there a difference between predicting with absolute certainty and knowing? I don't think so.

Wonderful, then why allow those people to be born at all ? what purpose will it serve ?
The point being that for those who believe in neither hell, nor god, they are not consciously choosing or rejecting either.

It seems that creating thinking, rational beings capable of choice, morality, and a real relationship between creator and creature seems to be the pinnacle of anything anyone could ever create--including God. He wanted to create and share the joys of life, choice, love, relationship, redemption, and a potentially infinite future. I can't fault him for that--I'm kind of partial to my life. Your objection is emotionally based--there is not problem with the rationale. 

It seems that God has made it clear to everyone at some point that he exists and should be sought after. You don't need to have heard of Jesus or the cross. God will judge you on how you responded with the information you were given. 

NOTE: I haven't said this in a while: I always argue from my doctrinal positions. Others may have a different perspective.

[The Grand Nudger]

If I -know- that you're going to turn left...can you turn right? If you can.....just what did I know, again?  Not that it matters either way.  God doesn't have to know a damned thing for this whole redemptive scheme to be bunk...and by the looks of the redemptive scheme..."not a damned thing" seems like an accurate summary of what god knows.

This isn't hard to understand--you should be able to keep up.

God does not know that you turned right (so there is no fact of the matter for him to know), he can anticipate, without error, all the steps leading up to your decision--including the way you think--so what he knows is what you will decide.  Just like I know that my wife will choose chocolate over vanilla except with a infinite mind with all knowable facts and counterfactuals available to him.

Then I can't turn right.  If I could, he wouldn't -know- a thing..and he's setting fire to a dog for shitting on the carpet, like he always knew it would..exactly in line with it's nature..of which he's the designer. Everytime one of you tries to offer some sort of immoral apologism it just gets worse.

[possibletarian]

I feel like I'm not explaining my thoughts properly.

So, god is sitting around contemplating creating existence and people.  He, I dunno, imagines what he would like in a creation.  The instant he does so, he sees/understands exactly how the entire scenario is going to play out, including the choices and fates of every single human being who would end up existing.  Now that he understands how plan A will go, he has to make some decisions.  I'll posit some options below:

* Go forward with plan A anyway, knowing how many of his "children" he'll be damning to an eternity of suffering.

* Perhaps a plan B.  Same as plan A, minus hell.

* Plan C.  Don't go through with it at all, and save everyone's soul in an instant.

* Plan D.  Something else.  Anything else.  Make purple smurfs who are morally perfect and incapable of sin.  He's god; he can literally do anything.

But, God chooses plan A for us, doesn't he?  Where was our choice; our will in all of this?  We had none.  We were never meaningfully in control of our existence. God picked what he wanted for our souls out of an infinite number of possibilities, knowing how it would play out, and said, "this is the future I've chosen for you."  Please explain to me again, how are we free?

Plan A includes creating us with free will. This is important because it seems thinking, rational beings capable of choice, morality, and a real relationship between creator and creature seems to be the pinnacle of anything anyone could ever create--including God. Free will entails the possibility of sin and the certainty that many will choose poorly.

Plan B is not possible. Holiness and justice are essential (couldn't have been any other way) to God. They are perfections. Sin (from A) creates the barrier because of his Holiness and a need to pay the penalty because of his justice. It seems vicarious redemption has its limits in that it must be freely accepted. 

Plan C -- God chose to create thinking, rational beings capable of choice, morality, and a real relationship between creator and creatures. I, for one am not going to whine that I should never have had existed and my wife and children shouldn't have existed because other people make the wrong choice. The potentially infinite goodness available to all, chosen by a minority does not make God's choice to create everything problematic from a logical nor a moral standpoint.

Plan D -- you wouldn't have the goals achieved in Plan A. 

Yes, God chose plan A for us. I for one, am glad he did. He did NOT chose a future for us -- only that we had a future to chose. Listen, there is nothing illogical about any of this. You objection is on an emotional level. I understand that. But it really isn't the problem you imagine for Christianity. 

How are we free? Free will is choosing an action that is not causally determined by factors outside of ourselves. As I have explained a post or two ago, God knowing what we are going to chose does not impact our ability to choose.

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Wonderful, then why allow those people to be born at all ? what purpose will it serve ?
The point being that for those who believe in neither hell, nor god, they are not consciously choosing or rejecting either.

It seems that creating thinking, rational beings capable of choice, morality, and a real relationship between creator and creature seems to be the pinnacle of anything anyone could ever create--including God. He wanted to create and share the joys of life, choice, love, relationship, redemption, and a potentially infinite future. I can't fault him for that--I'm kind of partial to my life. Your objection is emotionally based--there is not problem with the rationale. 

*It seems that God has made it clear to everyone at some point that he exists and should be sought after.* You don't need to have heard of Jesus or the cross. God will judge you on how you responded with the information you were given. 

NOTE: I haven't said this in a while: I always argue from my doctrinal positions. Others may have a different perspective.

Bold Mine*

How could you possibly know that ? He really has not made it clear to anyone, even Christians say they can offer no evidence.  When atheists ask 'why does god not make himself known'? and the counter claims is of course, well if that happened you would have to believe, and so loose your free will, which argument is it?

I think it's a legitimate question, simply claiming it as an emotional one answers little, if anything. To me it's an entirely logical one,  Would i bring people about that I knew would suffer for the sake of so called 'free will' , (assuming free will exists at all, which is against the current thinking) no i wouldn't, the argument is entirely logical.

[KevinM1]

God certainly hasn’t made his existence clear to me. Quite the opposite, in fact. Every day that passes, I’m more convinced that there is no god at all.