Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?

[chimp3]

OP asks silly question about an event that never occurred. Christians respond with fantasy and pretend they have something valid to the conversation. Amusing!

Is it fantasy to assert stomach mucus proves god's existence ??

Not at all! Chyme right in!

[Cyberman]

Very gut!

[Edwardo Piet]

Why did God allow people to be born at all?

Before people were born, everything was perfect. In fact, before the universe was created by him, everything was perfect.

I mean, assuming God exists and he's perfect. He had no need to create anything. He was fully self-sufficent. And too perfect to get bored or desire anything. If God really existed there wouldn't be a universe for him to make, there would be no point in it. No point in anything. Time wouldn't even need to pass. God would just be God, the perfect being, nothing else would be required.

The whole concept of a perfect being that makes an imperfect universe because he felt imperfect boredom and resembles humans in some way, is fucking stupid as fuck. It couldn't be more obviously written by humans if it tried.

[brewer]

OP: How do the theists know that god didn't do that? Over and over and over......................

How do they know how many versions it tried and wiped, starting over yet again? 

They can't. There would be no record until the last surviving version. Maybe god finally got frustrated and said that's as good as it gets.  

Christians do have some anecdotes indicating that their god has no problem eliminating imperfections.

[possibletarian]

So that he could have eternal fellowship with those of us who want it.

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Then why not create spiritual beings like himself, after all isn't that the destination for those who believe ?

Question for OP: Do you think life in this world is a net good, despite the suffering?

For me, yes, but as a species definitely not, firstly two thirds of the world do not subscribe to the Christian world view, and even of those that do many  the bible say many will not be considered real Christians.  Those that do not believe spent eternity in never ending torture suffering for the sins that god knew they would commit before they were even bought into existence. So I would say a net no.

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You need to show some proof of your statement, it sounds more like your imagination than what the Bible tells us. What could an atheist possibly know about the will of God?

Well, I don't believe in god, so for me the question is moot. but as theist are you suggesting that an all knowing  (Omniscience) god created mankind not knowing what would happen? You seem at odds with your fellow Christians here.

 I do know, I have studied the Bible where the answers are, if you haven't seen them that fault belongs to you. The bold by me, this must be something you pulled out of the spiritual hole you live in, an empty hole.

You mean out of the empty hole of the bible ?
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.…
Isaiah 58 8~9

Christians use it all the time, though many unlike me don't know where it is. it has variations of course. So you do claim to know god's purpose? then maybe you can answer my original question without use the old 'his ways are not our ways' or 'his purpose is unknown' card you can't have it both ways.

God wants to show all that love is greater than sin and without the continuation of the creation that wouldn't be possible.

And the net result is the majority of people who have ever lived going to hell to suffer for eternity, that makes no sense at all.

Again I study the Bible, I'm not like you who goes around spouting what you want to be true.

Nonsense, I don't believe any of it is true, I'm more interested in why you do

I didn't say that we couldn't know some of what God's intentions are

Hang on didn't you just say you do know god's purpose because you read the bible.. which is it ?

I said we can't know it all, you are a typical atheist who has no idea what you are talking about. You think you are smart and logical but you show Christians what you do not know and that is a tremendous amount.

Yes but that is just the point, I'm not claiming to know, I'm asking if you do, and if you do, why do you.

He is showing His love is greater that sin to all His creation, at the time of judgement no one will have an argument against Him.
Not hardly, God didn't cause the pain and suffering, Adam and Eve got it started and sinful man has continued till this very day.

That's just the point god knew it would happen to billions of innocents that need not be born, so why carry on ?

God has never be dependent on anything nor anyone, He was living an eternity before creation without anyone else anywhere. We know this from the Bible, you would to if you would just read it instead of spouting what you hear others saying.

Well there was Jesus, the Holy Spirit and myriads of angels hardly no one. But that of course leads to another question, why on earth would god create fallible human beings many of whom he knew would suffer for eternity when what he wanted ultimately was spiritual companionship in heaven ?  And why would god want companionship ? and where does it say god wanted companionship in the bible ?

 

Those souls were not created yet, they are created at the time of conception.

You seem to be making my point here, not yours

The future is yours to live as you want to and with sin in your life you should expect pain and suffering.

Well i will also suffer with many Christians as a result of famine, wars, natural disasters

Even Christians go through pain and suffering because we are not perfect, we are saved for an eternal life with God.

Odd that the good bit is unprovable in the life where you have to make choices.

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Then your question is simply why did God create the world we have. Why do you prejudice the question with the phrase "untold suffering". Do you think that on average there is more suffering in the world than not? 

Well yes you could ask that, but god did exactly that he created a world he knew would suffer, not only that he created a world where the majority would go to hell for eternity, why do you think that is creating muddy waters . Do you believe it to be untrue or unfair to mention in some way ?

A great summary for God's purpose can be found here: https://www.gotquestions.org/purpose-of-man.html

Regarding if God knew mankind would sin: https://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew...e-sin.html

What makes you think they are valid points, or answer any questions ?

What is with you and "untold suffering"? Have you had a difficult life or are you poisoning the well to make your argument stronger? It's depressing!

Well yes, a depressing feature that Christianity has use to great effect to coerce the ignorant, more to the point do you believe the bible to be true when it talks about hell ? or do you believe burning in hell forever does not fit a description of untold suffering ?

Have you every watched children behave over time? No one needs to teach them to be selfish, disobedient, and willful. It is in our nature to do so.

Then god created us like that, making judging us for those traits a nonsense

If there is no such thing as free will, then no one is ultimately responsible for their actions. Christianity unravels. 

Well yes, absolutely but free will under duress of hell is not really free will at all

Apparently God's purpose was not achieved by making two human beings. See above link.

Oh nobody is stopping god if he existed making more, just that he spare the rest of us poor folks eternity in hell. Why not simply create spiritual beings, cut out the middle man so to speak. Why create fragile human beings at all ?

[Godscreated]

Souls are created for the person who is conceived, the breath of life might give you a hint that this is true.

GC

An estimated 50% of pregnancies are spontaneously terminated ~three weeks after conception. What happens to all those souls? Are they recycled or do they evaporate in a puff of logic?

That doesn't even qualify for an answer, especially since it's been discussed many many times before.

GC

[possibletarian]

OP: How do the theists know that god didn't do that? Over and over and over......................

How do they know how many versions it tried and wiped, starting over yet again? 

They can't. There would be no record until the last surviving version. Maybe god finally got frustrated and said that's as good as it gets.  

Christians do have some anecdotes indicating that their god has no problem eliminating imperfections.

That's a very good question mh, one i had not thought of. As you say we would have no way of knowing at all.

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And he also knew he would have to wipe out humanity with a flood?  Oh, I just FEEL the love...

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I'm glad you are feeling god's mighty love and compassion, he has instructed me via text to give you two free tickets to the 'Ark Encounter' where you can see an almost empty car park, a giant ship, lots of animated animals and learn how T-Rex played with the other kids on the Ark.

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An estimated 50% of pregnancies are spontaneously terminated ~three weeks after conception. What happens to all those souls? Are they recycled or do they evaporate in a puff of logic?

That doesn't even qualify for an answer, especially since it's been discussed many many times before.

GC

It was a question, not an answer.

[Godscreated]

You need to show some proof of your statement, it sounds more like your imagination than what the Bible tells us. What could an atheist possibly know about the will of God?

Well, I don't believe in god, so for me the question is moot. but as theist are you suggesting that an all knowing  (Omniscience) god created mankind not knowing what would happen? You seem at odds with your fellow Christians here.

No the point can't be moot, you made an accusation and need to stand behind it with some sort of proof, I take it this is a dodge though.
I never said that God didn't know what would happen, God is eternal (omnipresent) and has lived through all eternity, He has no beginning and no end and has always known all things. God being eternal means He has existed in all times and places all the time.

 I do know, I have studied the Bible where the answers are, if you haven't seen them that fault belongs to you. The bold by me, this must be something you pulled out of the spiritual hole you live in, an empty hole.

 

You mean out of the empty hole of the bible ?
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.…
Isaiah 58 8~9

I know the verse quite well and understand it's meaning and the way you used it in your last post made no sense, it wasn't relevant to my post. By the way you posted the wrong verses.

Christians use it all the time, though many unlike me don't know where it is. it has variations of course. So you do claim to know god's purpose? then maybe you can answer my original question without use the old 'his ways are not our ways' or 'his purpose is unknown' card you can't have it both ways.

Of coarse we do, we understand it's meaning and it's truth. I did not say I knew God's entire purpose and if you would learn to comprehend what you read you would have known this. I didn't use that verse nor insinuate it, you are the one who brought it up completely out of context of the discussion.

God wants to show all that love is greater than sin and without the continuation of the creation that wouldn't be possible.

And the net result is the majority of people who have ever lived going to hell to suffer for eternity, that makes no sense at all.

  It makes perfect sense, people like you reject the love God has for you, so hell is the destination for rejection, you choose it and God gives you your choice.

Again I study the Bible, I'm not like you who goes around spouting what you want to be true.

Nonsense, I don't believe any of it is true, I'm more interested in why you do

Your not interested in why I believe, if you were you would ask relevant questions instead of criticizing what Christians write. You don't listen you're here to jabber your jaw like the rest of the atheist here.

I didn't say that we couldn't know some of what God's intentions are

Hang on didn't you just say you do know god's purpose because you read the bible.. which is it ?

Me hang on, it's you who needs to hang on I think this conversations going to fast for you. Slow down, read and comprehend what is being said to you, please. It gets tiring repeating what's already been plainly said. I stated I know some of what God's plans are, because I'm part of them, also, I take Isaiah 55:8-9. I study the Bible to understand what God will reveal to me.

I said we can't know it all, you are a typical atheist who has no idea what you are talking about. You think you are smart and logical but you show Christians what you do not know and that is a tremendous amount.

Yes but that is just the point, I'm not claiming to know, I'm asking if you do, and if you do, why do you.

You've yet to ask a relevant question and you seem to be enjoying making fun of God, beware.

He is showing His love is greater that sin to all His creation, at the time of judgement no one will have an argument against Him.
Not hardly, God didn't cause the pain and suffering, Adam and Eve got it started and sinful man has continued till this very day.

That's just the point god knew it would happen to billions of innocents that need not be born, so why carry on ?

You keep saying the same thing and you have received answers yet you will not listen, you continue to ignore what is being said. Let me put it to you this way, it's God's plan not yours, he can let in go as he desires because it is His plan, no one can stop it and no one has the right to criticize His plan because no one can duplicate it, it all belongs to Him, He is eternal and you can't seem to understand what it means that God is eternal. He is the only being who will ever be eternal.
People are not innocent because you say so, so you need to forget this, God says all are guilty of sin and deserve to die. The offenses (sins) are against the Holy and Righteous God who created all things and in that a payment is due, unless you come to know Christ for who He is.

God has never be dependent on anything nor anyone, He was living an eternity before creation without anyone else anywhere. We know this from the Bible, you would too if you would just read it instead of spouting what you hear others saying.

Well there was Jesus, the Holy Spirit and myriads of angels hardly no one. But that of course leads to another question, why on earth would god create fallible human beings many of whom he knew would suffer for eternity when what he wanted ultimately was spiritual companionship in heaven ?  And why would god want companionship ? and where does it say god wanted companionship in the bible ?

This is where you show your lack of biblical knowledge and you should at least become familiar with the basics before trying to argue against God and His word.
God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit are all the same God revealed in three persons, yes it's possible for God. The angels were created during the creation week, when we do not know but Bible study reveals this to us. God didn't need any companionship He was totally satisfied with who He is and would have enjoyed eternity without us or the angels. God did not create fallible man, God created the perfect man and woman all others have been conceived through man and woman, it is part of God's plan. I'm not even sure how you got to God needing companionship. Man was created for God to love and to love God, for a relationship with Him so we could know and enjoy the wonders of God.

 

Those souls were not created yet, they are created at the time of conception.

 

You seem to be making my point here, not yours

You have no point and what I'm saying is truth to my points.

The future is yours to live as you want to and with sin in your life you should expect pain and suffering.

Well i will also suffer with many Christians as a result of famine, wars, natural disasters

I was speaking of personal suffering. God doesn't promise Christians that life will go smooth for us, we will suffer through those things you mentioned the difference is that God will be with Christians to bring them peace, understanding and help. We are to also be there for those who are suffering through all things, unfortunately most atheist despise Christians so much they will not accept our help, kinda' dumb if you ask me.

Even Christians go through pain and suffering because we are not perfect, we are saved for an eternal life with God.

Odd that the good bit is unprovable in the life where you have to make choices.

  
 Not sure what you are trying to say in the above. I'll take a stab at it anyway, God will prove himself to those who want to know Him through Christ, it's your choice not God's.

GC

[Whateverist]

Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?

Got to go with (a) strange and wonderful reasons.

[brewer]

Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?

Got to go with (a) strange and wonderful reasons.

Or (b) didn't give a shit because it would get to kill later.

Or © got bored and moved on for awhile, came back and said what the fuck.