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RE: Jesus as Lord - why is this appealing to so many?
January 30, 2018 at 4:03 pm
(This post was last modified: January 30, 2018 at 4:05 pm by KevinM1.)
(January 30, 2018 at 3:48 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (January 30, 2018 at 3:19 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: But why is surrender necessary?
When you get married you give up being one person in order to join with and become one with, another. Your life isn't just your own anymore. You share. Everything you do, is with the other in mind. In that way, you surrender your life to them by surrendering your singlehood and whatever you would otherwise have done on your own whim. The surrender is necessary for the marriage. But at the end of the day (assuming the marriage is good and the other person has also done the same for you), that surrender of self to your spouse/marriage brings you a great sense of fulfillment.
And so it is with God. As human beings we have certain natural tendencies which are at odds with goodness and love. We have a natural tendency to be greedy and prideful. So if we want to embrace all that is good, we have to surrender the parts that are bad and selfish. Its a daily, on going battle of course. But this is what I mean when I say "surrender to God," and that's why the surrender part is necessary.
I've never viewed any relationship as a surrendering, but rather a give and take. Surrender, to me, means absolute subjugation, not compromise.
(January 30, 2018 at 3:51 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: The desired end is a just society. Democracy is only the means to that end and its effectiveness in doing so is contingent on the virtue of its citizenry. Unless the body politic recognizes an authority higher than its own general will it is nothing more than an amoral mob.
And yet, many atheists have virtue and morality without believing in a higher authority.
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RE: Jesus as Lord - why is this appealing to so many?
January 30, 2018 at 4:09 pm
(January 30, 2018 at 4:03 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: (January 30, 2018 at 3:48 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: When you get married you give up being one person in order to join with and become one with, another. Your life isn't just your own anymore. You share. Everything you do, is with the other in mind. In that way, you surrender your life to them by surrendering your singlehood and whatever you would otherwise have done on your own whim. The surrender is necessary for the marriage. But at the end of the day (assuming the marriage is good and the other person has also done the same for you), that surrender of self to your spouse/marriage brings you a great sense of fulfillment.
And so it is with God. As human beings we have certain natural tendencies which are at odds with goodness and love. We have a natural tendency to be greedy and prideful. So if we want to embrace all that is good, we have to surrender the parts that are bad and selfish. Its a daily, on going battle of course. But this is what I mean when I say "surrender to God," and that's why the surrender part is necessary.
I've never viewed any relationship as a surrendering, but rather a give and take. Surrender, to me, means absolute subjugation, not compromise.
I would agree on the compromise/give and take of a marriage. But that's why it's important that both parties surrender to each other.
It's not a perfect analogy to God. But I was trying to show why surrender is necessary and why it is fulfilling.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Jesus as Lord - why is this appealing to so many?
January 30, 2018 at 4:29 pm
(January 30, 2018 at 3:39 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: (January 30, 2018 at 3:34 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote:
Well, there's authorities over everyone, but in the most important cases they're elected by the people. Even those that aren't (bosses, parents, whatever) can be ignored/switched once one becomes an adult without much in the way of negative repercussions. People can switch jobs, move away, etc. The relationships aren't just freely entered, but can be freely left (and, in the case of employment, there's sometimes collective bargaining in place).
That's very different, IMO, than being lorded over. I don't bend knee to my mom or my president.
So,if I may ask... if you could have a King who knew more, was wiser, and better than you; why would you not follow them? This seems foolish to me.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
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RE: Jesus as Lord - why is this appealing to so many?
January 30, 2018 at 4:30 pm
(January 30, 2018 at 4:03 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: (January 30, 2018 at 3:51 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: The desired end is a just society. Democracy is only the means to that end and its effectiveness in doing so is contingent on the virtue of its citizenry. Unless the body politic recognizes an authority higher than its own general will it is nothing more than an amoral mob.
And yet, many atheists have virtue and morality without believing in a higher authority.
Indeed, they think they get it from themselves.
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RE: Jesus as Lord - why is this appealing to so many?
January 30, 2018 at 4:35 pm
(This post was last modified: January 30, 2018 at 4:42 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I know, what a bunch of silly rubes. The obvious answer as to where a persons own virtue and morality derive is clearly ghosts. Maybe even king ghosts........ 
Here's a fun question, since you're there, up above, aping the opinion of pre christian pagan greeks as regards mob rule..which we no longer believe in. What is it when the amoral mob points to a "higher power" as an authority..but that higher power doesn't exist in the first place? Is there a word for that, do you reckon?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Jesus as Lord - why is this appealing to so many?
January 30, 2018 at 4:46 pm
(January 30, 2018 at 4:29 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (January 30, 2018 at 3:39 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: Well, there's authorities over everyone, but in the most important cases they're elected by the people. Even those that aren't (bosses, parents, whatever) can be ignored/switched once one becomes an adult without much in the way of negative repercussions. People can switch jobs, move away, etc. The relationships aren't just freely entered, but can be freely left (and, in the case of employment, there's sometimes collective bargaining in place).
That's very different, IMO, than being lorded over. I don't bend knee to my mom or my president.
So,if I may ask... if you could have a King who knew more, was wiser, and better than you; why would you not follow them? This seems foolish to me.
I'd want this entity to:
1. Prove it exists
2. Demonstrate that its claim to authority is legitimate
As a starting point. From there, I'd attempt to convince it to be part of a greater collective body rather than simply the ruler.
Of course, your god hasn't even gotten #1 down, so....
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RE: Jesus as Lord - why is this appealing to so many?
January 30, 2018 at 4:51 pm
(January 30, 2018 at 4:46 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: (January 30, 2018 at 4:29 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: So,if I may ask... if you could have a King who knew more, was wiser, and better than you; why would you not follow them? This seems foolish to me.
I'd want this entity to:
1. Prove it exists
2. Demonstrate that its claim to authority is legitimate
As a starting point. From there, I'd attempt to convince it to be part of a greater collective body rather than simply the ruler.
Of course, your god hasn't even gotten #1 down, so....
While I would disagree; that wasn't the question. I'm trying to understand what you issue is.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
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RE: Jesus as Lord - why is this appealing to so many?
January 30, 2018 at 4:53 pm
(This post was last modified: January 30, 2018 at 4:54 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It's all so much easier than that. Since "gods" do not exist and would have absolutely no moral authority even if they did...the religious can just rewrite their shitty gods opinions. That;s something they can, and at least sometimes, do. The only reason to maintain them as-is being a cover for their own personal bullshit.
There's no reason at all to be nice or polite about it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Jesus as Lord - why is this appealing to so many?
January 30, 2018 at 5:01 pm
(January 30, 2018 at 4:29 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (January 30, 2018 at 3:39 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: Well, there's authorities over everyone, but in the most important cases they're elected by the people. Even those that aren't (bosses, parents, whatever) can be ignored/switched once one becomes an adult without much in the way of negative repercussions. People can switch jobs, move away, etc. The relationships aren't just freely entered, but can be freely left (and, in the case of employment, there's sometimes collective bargaining in place).
That's very different, IMO, than being lorded over. I don't bend knee to my mom or my president.
So,if I may ask... if you could have a King who knew more, was wiser, and better than you; why would you not follow them? This seems foolish to me.
A benevolent dictator is still a dictator and thereby not to be obeyed.
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RE: Jesus as Lord - why is this appealing to so many?
January 30, 2018 at 5:02 pm
(January 30, 2018 at 3:51 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: The desired end is a just society. Democracy is only the means to that end and its effectiveness in doing so is contingent on the virtue of its citizenry. Unless the body politic recognizes an authority higher than its own general will it is nothing more than an amoral mob.
Funny you'd bring up democracy, a form of government meant to give power to the people, in a discussion about becoming subservient to a singular individual, which is a dictatorship.
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