High school shooting in Parkland FL

[A Theist]

Well, whaddaya know?  It seems the "good guy with the gun" thought better of it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/22/us/ni...ss&emc=rss

Amazing what a dud guy with a gun can't do in an emergency.

Just saw on the news this morning that there were actually four deputies at the school who didn't go in to engage the shooter. Scott Israel needs to resign, especially since the shooter was well known to the Broward County Sheriff's Dept.

[Mister Agenda]

Again, you will need a higher stressor to make someone kill a person , "confiscating guns" won't do the trick for most people.

Not for 99% of them, probably. In America that leaves what, around 100,000 who will put up a fight?

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Maybe not shoot up a school specifically.  But shoot up places, yeah for sure. Besides, do you feel like they are mentally stable people with predictable behavior?

If they are so mentally unstable that they would try to shoot up places when faced with increased gun control measures, they shouldn't have guns in the first place.

Isn't that Cap'n Awesome's point? That rather than try to confiscate those guns after they're in the hands of someone unstable, they should be prevented from acquiring them in the first place?

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If that is true how is it that in Romania only 300 murders happen per year ? And please don't say mentality or culture of violence because Romania's socio-economical enviroment is as fucked as a hooker at the corner.

Yeah if one country ever should have been a den of violence it's Romania.

You have to pass a psych eval to get a firearm permit in Romania.

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You know, I am seeing SO MUCH FUCKING LOVE FOR THIS COUNTRY from people willing to destroy it just to keep their FUCKING TOYS.

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People said to take them from their cold dead hands.

That can be arranged if it's so their wish.

I'd take their hands, too. Make great wall gun racks if they're preserved right, and the irony factor would be LOLbaby.

As opposed to those who would destroy the country to take their fucking toys away?

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I think you're more likely to encounter a bunch of scared vets without guns after they follow the law and begrudgingly hand them over. There'd probably be a few that hid guns or got extra pissy, but I don't think they'd start a huge shootout, for the most part. This is really demonizing vets with PTSD. I've spent decades of my life around groups of vets with PTSD. They have anxiety, not insanity.

I think your mileage with the ones who join militias might vary.

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Because killing people is okay if they won't give up their legally-acquired property on demand? About 30-35% of American households have one or more guns, and most of them will turn over their guns peacefully rather than take on the authorities. That will only leave a few thousand little Waco scenarios. And sure, there will be some cops killed and some collateral damage, but it'll be worth once those gun owners are all disarmed or dead. It shouldn't affect you personally, because no one you personally care about owns a gun. And afterwards, America will heal right up, just like we did after the Civil War.

Nobody wants a civil war. That is not what liberals want.

I was addressing specifically those on this thread fantasizing about forcibly disarming the subset of American gun owners who will forcibly resist being disarmed, no matter how many of them die in the process. I would hope they are an insignificant minority. I also hope they're not serious.

[Cyberman]

Like in the UK, you can't carry a knife unless it's a folding knife with a blade no longer than 3 inches.

Unless you can prove you're carrying it for lawful purposes. Even then, it's a criminal offence to wield it in a threatening manner.

[The Grand Nudger]

 Gun confiscation is not a viable solution and creates a problem many many times the magnitude of what you are trying to solve. Mental health care and mental health screening is the solution.  It's easier, cheaper, more politically viable. You can get many gun owners on board with it. It wont cause a terrible bloodbath.

An amnesty buyback directly based on the models in the FBI's public TTC report would be a better idea.  Start buying all the pistols beyond 2006, make a special case fore ar-15's (but if you really wanted to reduce paramilitary gear ak's are what you'd need to target).  The average black market value of a firearm is..usually, less than half of it's maintained depreciated value (if the firearms had been kept in armory for purposes of sale).  Crime can be priced right out of guns.  We know from the ttc that crime is overwhelmingly committed by guns at least seven years old, with two state to state transfers.  Essentially, they sit in stock as new models a bit like cars...at some point, a secondary retailer picks them up.   There they sit on those shelves.  They sit, depreciating, until someone needs to make a desperation sale.  Eventually, they're purchased...and from there they p2p their way in the pool.  

If the buyback incentive provides a greater return than the 3rd hand p2p, transfer owners looking to liquidate their firearms to cash will take that option.  Further, those who already traffic in firearms will take the percentage in trade for the hassle of dealing with fucking criminals.  This will drastically reduce the amount of guns that end up on the ttc.  We'd need to do this even if we closed the p2p loophole...because people will still sell their guns, regardless of the law.  Effectively closing the p2p (by requiring background checks, for example) and instituting a rolling buyback  starting with older pistols and paramilitary rifles, is the way to reduce the amount of relevant firearms in circulation and use.  

I agree that boots on the ground confiscating is the worst conceivable idea.  I've done it before.  It escalates quickly.  It's not really an issue of whether or not it could be done.  OFC it could, militia men are a non issue - it's the fuckin logistics of the thing that get nightmarish.  Guns move.  Guns hide.  When they dig a position in the ground and return fire it's relatively easy to confiscate them..being condensed into a small area with insufficient defense (relative to the options a state funded reaction force can leverage).  What's worse than a militia are the people who either sympathize or become radicalized by the example of those seizures..however peaceful or violent.  Then you have the odd pop shot from a third floor.  You never find the fucker.  Nobody is gonna send little Timmy to jail just because he flung a round at the stormtroopers.........trust me, lol.

[pocaracas]

Like in the UK, you can't carry a knife unless it's a folding knife with a blade no longer than 3 inches.

Unless you can prove you're carrying it for lawful purposes. Even then, it's a criminal offence to wield it in a threatening manner.

Even if it's a toy gun (a realistic one, like in airsoft)

[Cyberman]

That's guns. I was responding to the thing about knives.

[Brian37]

Again, you will need a higher stressor to make someone kill a person , "confiscating guns" won't do the trick for most people.

Not for 99% of them, probably. In America that leaves what, around 100,000 who will put up a fight?

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If they are so mentally unstable that they would try to shoot up places when faced with increased gun control measures, they shouldn't have guns in the first place.

Isn't that Cap'n Awesome's point? That rather than try to confiscate those guns after they're in the hands of someone unstable, they should be prevented from acquiring them in the first place?

---

Yeah if one country ever should have been a den of violence it's Romania.

You have to pass a psych eval to get a firearm permit in Romania.

---

You know, I am seeing SO MUCH FUCKING LOVE FOR THIS COUNTRY from people willing to destroy it just to keep their FUCKING TOYS.

---

I'd take their hands, too. Make great wall gun racks if they're preserved right, and the irony factor would be LOLbaby.

As opposed to those who would destroy the country to take their fucking toys away?

---

I think you're more likely to encounter a bunch of scared vets without guns after they follow the law and begrudgingly hand them over. There'd probably be a few that hid guns or got extra pissy, but I don't think they'd start a huge shootout, for the most part. This is really demonizing vets with PTSD. I've spent decades of my life around groups of vets with PTSD. They have anxiety, not insanity.

I think your mileage with the ones who join militias might vary.

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Nobody wants a civil war. That is not what liberals want.

I was addressing specifically those on this thread fantasizing about forcibly disarming the subset of American gun owners who will forcibly resist being disarmed, no matter how many of them die in the process. I would hope they are an insignificant minority. I also hope they're not serious.

You know what "eminent domain" is? That is when the government takes your property and compensates you for it, to use it for things like highways and fire stations and public schools. One could argue corporations have abused that, but the intent of the law originally was not about force, but a public trust agreement for bettering society.

NOBODY is suggesting a fascist state, but a buyback program for war riffles and big clips would amount to the same idea. At some point America has to face the fact we need to put public safety above the profits of one industry. Firearm injuries and deaths are an epidemic and we cant cop out to "arm everyone". 

Firearms still exist in Scotland and Australia, but what they don't have is an unhealthy obsession like we do here. If you want a firearm for hunting, target shooting or home protection, sure fine, but you don't need an Ar-15 or a banana clip. We still need to keep them out of the hands of the mentally ill, out of the hands of stalkers and domestic abusers and religious and political terrorists too.

None of what I just typed is a call for an 100% ban on all firearms. I have a friend in Oklahoma, who grew up with guns and even he thinks the NRA is bat shit crazy.

[Brian37]

Amazing what a dud guy with a gun can't do in an emergency.

Just saw on the news this morning that there were actually four deputies at the school who didn't go in to engage the shooter. Scott Israel needs to resign, especially since the shooter was well known to the Broward County Sheriff's Dept.

Don't even try to scapegoat the police or the guard. I used to work in radio, in the range of Bedford Virgina, where dozen's of D-day soldiers died. I covered the boards for that memorial and listened to the survivors. One vet who landed on the beach said many soldiers FROZE. But even they still took more of a risk than President Shithole did. Easy to say what you would do when you are not in the actual event. This is about long term bad policy that has made firearms far to easy to obtain regardless of what you think of what these individual police or the guard should have done. Your excuse will be something entirely different for the next mass shooting when the police don't run.

There was with the Oregon college shooting a vet carrying and even he said he didn't get involved. 

If you want to argue first responders training, that would be a better argument. But if you are going to argue these guys were not mentally fit, then what the hell would make you think a civilian could do better whom does not have police training?

Next shooting it will be,

"It's the mentally ill"
"It's the urban gangs"
"It's the terrorists"

[A Theist]

Just saw on the news this morning that there were actually four deputies at the school who didn't go in to engage the shooter. Scott Israel needs to resign, especially since the shooter was well known to the Broward County Sheriff's Dept.

Don't even try to scapegoat the police or the guard. I used to work in radio, in the range of Bedford Virgina, where dozen's of D-day soldiers died. I covered the boards for that memorial and listened to the survivors. One vet who landed on the beach said many soldiers FROZE. But even they still took more of a risk than President Shithole did. Easy to say what you would do when you are not in the actual event. This is about long term bad policy that has made firearms far to easy to obtain regardless of what you think of what these individual police or the guard should have done. Your excuse will be something entirely different for the next mass shooting when the police don't run.

There was with the Oregon college shooting a vet carrying and even he said he didn't get involved. 

If you want to argue first responders training, that would be a better argument. But if you are going to argue these guys were not mentally fit, then what the hell would make you think a civilian could do better whom does not have police training?

Next shooting it will be,

"It's the mentally ill"
"It's the urban gangs"
"It's the terrorists"

Fuck you.

[Brian37]

Don't even try to scapegoat the police or the guard. I used to work in radio, in the range of Bedford Virgina, where dozen's of D-day soldiers died. I covered the boards for that memorial and listened to the survivors. One vet who landed on the beach said many soldiers FROZE. But even they still took more of a risk than President Shithole did. Easy to say what you would do when you are not in the actual event. This is about long term bad policy that has made firearms far to easy to obtain regardless of what you think of what these individual police or the guard should have done. Your excuse will be something entirely different for the next mass shooting when the police don't run.

There was with the Oregon college shooting a vet carrying and even he said he didn't get involved. 

If you want to argue first responders training, that would be a better argument. But if you are going to argue these guys were not mentally fit, then what the hell would make you think a civilian could do better whom does not have police training?

Next shooting it will be,

"It's the mentally ill"
"It's the urban gangs"
"It's the terrorists"

Fuck you.

I am sorry my free speech bothers you, and I am sorry my voting habits bother you, don't like it? TOUGH SHIT.

My redneck friend from Oklahoma grew up with guns and even he thinks the NRA is bat shit crazy. 

Australia and New Zealand and Scotland HAVE NOT banned guns, but what they don't do is make them like candy and hand them out like candy. If you do not give a shit about the average of 90 firearm deaths PER DAY, there simply is no polite way to put it, you are a selfish heartless person.

You go tell that to the survivors of Parkland and Newtown.

Now despite what you STUPIDLY think, most liberals DO NOT want to ban 100% of all firearms. But we make way too many and they are way too easy to obtain.

I have no criminal record, but depression does run in my family, so if you think the mentally ill should not have them, you are fucked in my state. I could go out right now and buy one because I have no record. Now, cant have it both ways buddy, if you don't want me to have a firearm, then our laws would have to change to prevent me from getting one.

Humans have rights not objects.