Before We Discuss Whether God Exists, I Have A Question

[Wyrd of Gawd]

I have over the years gotten  tired of discussng whether there is a god, with well meaning relatives.  I have a new program.  I say,

I would like to (1) believe in god, if god exists; and  (2) to not believe in god, if God does not exist.  Can you say the same?  If the answer is "no,"  I refuse to discuss the matter as we have left the realm of what is in favor of we would like to be.  

I've tried this just three times now. The answer has never been flat out no at least not initially.  Instead, the responses have been:  but you are trying to take away my faith; Pascal's Wager; and I just know he does.  To which I respond, that unless you are willing to consider the possibility there is no god, than there is no point in the dicussion.   It isn't perfect, but so far this works better than anything I've tried yet.

I simply don't give a rat's ass if any God of any kind exists.  I won't worship it.  

There is no celestial deity of any kind in this solar system.

[Jenny A]

Non of this relates in any way to the OP.


No. The stipulation was:


"Willing to consider", not "demonstrate non existence of".

OMG, he spoke to me!! 

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But that is exactly the point of my question.  Discussing the existence of something when one person is emotionally invested in belief through faith and the other only wants to believe in it if it's actually true, is not a dicussion, it's a conversation attempt.  And with relatives, it's likely to lead to a guilt trip as well.  So, it's a conversation I'd really rather not have.  The point of my question is to avoid the the conversion altogether.

Not that I mind debate. I rather like it.  But that isn't what conversations with faithful relatives leads to.

But that's what I'm saying though. Of course we (well, at least myself) only want to believe in it if it's true. If I found out God didn't exist, trust me, there would be no reason for me to lie to myself. But the point is it's impossible to know with 100% certainty whether it actually is or is not true. 

There currently exists legitimate reasons to think that it is, and legitimate reason to think that it isn't. A person usually takes the position that is most convincing to them and makes the most sense to them. But without concrete proof they are only left to hope that they are right, and that's where the faith part comes in. It doesn't mean they want to believe in it even if it isn't true. It means they think it probably is, and fill in the uncertainty part with faith/hope. 

It's interesting for me personally to discuss the reason for whatever position a person takes on the issue, but I can see why it would be frustrating for either party to try to convince the other person when there is no concrete proof either way.

I'm happy to discuss whether there are any good reasons to believe god exists.  But I'd want to know first if by good reasons you mean good evidence for the existence of, or if you mean something else.  It's that something else, I've really lost patience with.

It's not that  absolute 100% proof is necessary for me to act as if something exists or at least to prepare for the possibility that it might, but I don't do either for the extremely unlikely.  And I do not hope your god exists. And he seems ultra extremely unlikely.

[Whateverist]

Jenny, I think where people may be getting hung up is that having hope is part of having faith. The 2 go hand in hand. There is no concrete proof that God exists, but we *hope* that He does.

Of course, if it was somehow made 100% clear that God indeed was not real, there would be no reason to hope anymore and I would just face the reality. But as everyone knows, It's almost impossible to disprove a negative and probably impossible to disprove the existance of God. So there will always be room for faith and hope, and people will keep hoping.

I think faith is key for hope.  It just doesn't have to be in faith in a god.  You can have faith in the basic goodness of your fellow human being (a stretch I know).  You can have faith that something deep within will enable you to find your way to better times.  

For that matter it is quite possible to live the best life one can even without hope.  Sometimes extreme circumstances will extract an especially inspiring life.

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Due to my slightly modified work schedule, I’ve been having to stay at work for lunch. I usually try to avoid the break room, but I’ve been having no choice. It’s common for coworkers to try to convince me that there’s a god by sharing their stories. I just smile and nod as I scroll through my phone. Nothing I say will even be considered, so there’s no point in discussion. I’ve learned this and accept it.

Have you tried Jenny's suggestion?  Cut them off at the beginning and ask if they really want to have a discussion about the existence of God.  Then drop the bomb, that you would be willing to suspend your disbelief for the purpose of the discussion so long as they could do the same with their belief.  If they take you up on it you might even suggest that you 'switch chairs', with each of you making the other person's best case and then giving feedback on your efforts.  Then run back here to give us the full report.

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But that's what I'm saying though. Of course we (well, at least myself) only want to believe in it if it's true. If I found out God didn't exist, trust me, there would be no reason for me to lie to myself. But the point is it's impossible to know with 100% certainty whether it actually is or is not true.

*my bold*

As you already acknowledge, there is no conclusive proof that God does not exist.  So long as someone believes there is a supernatural watchmaker/puppeteer behind the reality we see who can reach through the veil in any way It chooses and reveal or remain concealed as it chooses and who can discern and retain the knowledge of every minute action, thought and feeling of all the billions and billions of human beings who have ever lived ...

There is no way to catch such a being "in the act" unless It chooses to be caught.  So your belief is perfectly safe.  But wouldn't you agree it sounds incredibly far fetched on the face of it?

[Catholic_Lady]

My bold... Yeah, I can see that. In any discussion both sides have to be willing to consider the other side. So if that's all Jenny was trying to say, then I would agree with her. There has to be open mind in discussion.

One more time:
Are you are willing to consider the possibility there is no god?
Yes or no.

Yessss my beautiful lovey poo  

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The existence of suffering is probably the most difficult thing to reconcile with the Christian God. Especially when it ends up being you that a horrible thing happens to.

[Edwardo Piet]

The existence of suffering is probably the most difficult thing to reconcile with the Christian God. Especially when it ends up being you that a horrible thing happens to.

Yeah. And then there are people born in areas without clean water. While Trump gets to spend his time tweeting bullshit. Seems to me that if life were a game it would be rigged.

[Cecelia]

The existence of suffering is probably the most difficult thing to reconcile with the Christian God. Especially when it ends up being you that a horrible thing happens to.

Back when I was still a Christian, I could not be convinced of an interfering God simply for the reason of suffering.  Every time I read about a child being abducted, molested, and murdered (of which there are a LOT) I just can't see how any God could sit back and let that happen.  When a man can abduct and rape a 9 year old girl, then stuff her in a trash bag and bury her, letting her suffocate to death... I just can't see how an interfering God would just let that happen.  Doesn't matter if the girl was an atheist, a muslim, a jew, black, white.  Doesn't matter who the attacker was either.  An all knowing, all seeing, all loving god who interferes couldn't just sit back and let that happen.  If I were god, those men would be struck by lightning before they got their victim back to their house.  On a clear blue day, without a cloud in the sky.  Or heck, barring that I'd lead a Bear to maul him to death.  I mean he supposedly did it to these guys who were making fun of a prophet. 

Once I accepted that though, I had a hard time reconciling God with the God of the Old Testament.  I mean he was obviously an interfering God in the Old Testament.  He freed the people of Israel from the Egyptians.  (At least according to the bible). 

From there it's not hard to question the existence of the Christian God.   Did this God interfere, and then stopped?  Or did the people of the past just think he interfered, when God wasn't involved at all.  At which point I had to ask myself "If God wasn't involved in the Old Testament, then who's to say the old testament is accurate at all?  None of the stories make sense.  Some of the stories even make God sound like a horrible individual."  I know a lot of Christians who say that you're SUPPOSED to Fear God.  Which I find hard to reconcile with the idea of a benevolent god.  I mean is such a god (One that is of Fear) worthy of worship?  Do I want to worship someone like that?   But I find it very in line with the old testament.

I think for an honest conversation about all of this, people have to be able to at least consider the possibility that God doesn't exist.  Because if you start with the assumption god exists, and can only work within those parameters, you'll quickly find excuses.  From the less harmful but totally useless "God would have to save EVERYONE if he saved one person." and "She's in heaven now!"   to the despicable "Well if she prayed harder and just believed he would have saved her!"  It immediately closes the possibility that there is no god, and that's why these children aren't saved.  Whether it's the abduction victim, one of the kids at Sandy Hook, or any of the kids that were in the Alfred P Murrah building.

[robvalue]

I made a video recently about how I feel the existence of suffering cannot be justified, unless "God" is not as all-powerful as theists generally claim.

[Pat Mustard]

I have over the years gotten  tired of discussng whether there is a god, with well meaning relatives.  I have a new program.  I say,

I would like to (1) believe in god, if god exists; and  (2) to not believe in god, if God does not exist.  Can you say the same?  If the answer is "no,"  I refuse to discuss the matter as we have left the realm of what is in favor of we would like to be.  

I've tried this just three times now. The answer has never been flat out no at least not initially.  Instead, the responses have been:  but you are trying to take away my faith; Pascal's Wager; and I just know he does.  To which I respond, that unless you are willing to consider the possibility there is no god, than there is no point in the dicussion.   It isn't perfect, but so far this works better than anything I've tried yet.

If it were shown that god existed then belief would not be the correct response. Belief exists because it is held to exist despite the dearth of supporting evidence.

[Huggy Bear]

I have over the years gotten  tired of discussng whether there is a god, with well meaning relatives.  I have a new program.  I say,

I would like to (1) believe in god, if god exists; and  (2) to not believe in god, if God does not exist.  Can you say the same?  If the answer is "no,"  I refuse to discuss the matter as we have left the realm of what is in favor of we would like to be.  

I've tried this just three times now. The answer has never been flat out no at least not initially.  Instead, the responses have been:  but you are trying to take away my faith; Pascal's Wager; and I just know he does.  To which I respond, that unless you are willing to consider the possibility there is no god, than there is no point in the dicussion.   It isn't perfect, but so far this works better than anything I've tried yet.

How about this... I present evidence that God exists and you present evidence that a God does not exist and we'll judge based on who has the most evidence for and against.

[LadyForCamus]

Huggy, you have no evidence that a god exists, but go ahead. Make a fool out of yourself for another twenty pages. Why stop now?