Hadiths and deceivers.

[Angrboda]

I believed in the book due to the design of the universe...

How does belief in design lead to belief in a specific book? You're using design as a sign of confirmation after the fact of already having taken the leap to believe in the Quran, but you believed in that specific book first. How does design uniquely point to this book rather than that one?

[Mystic]

Atlas, in my personal experience, I witness a miracle in the hadiths, in that many of them have insights to Quran which will bring the Quran to life and manifest it's wonders, if you try to perceive them verified in Quran.

There is much poison and falsehood in them, and ilmel rijaal reliance is that of circular reasoning at the center.

[The Grand Nudger]

The solution to the problem of magic book? Moar magic books!

[Edwardo Piet]

What would God do without people telling us which of these religious books can be trusted and which can't?

See, God literally wrote lots of different bullshit books that all contradict each other just so he can laugh his balls off at different religions fighting over him. The sadist!

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When a religion has vicious lies about itself in its own religious books, it's time to go shopping elsewhere.

Lol this sentence is supremely quotable.

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Anyways, amongst all this depressing islamic "deceiving" bullshit, it's time for a more cheery song and dance on the matter:

[Neo-Scholastic]

This includes Sunni and Shiite hadiths. 

What about the Sufi?

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I believed in the book due to the design of the universe...

How does belief in design lead to belief in a specific book?... How does design uniquely point to this book rather than that one?

Indeed. Even the Scholastics knew better than attempt to link natural revelations directly with special ones.

[Mystic]

This includes Sunni and Shiite hadiths. 

What about the Sufi?

Sufis are either Sunni or Shiite, their circle goes in both sects. There is Shiite Sufis and Sunni Sufis.

[Brian37]

If you going to trust "Sahih" hadiths, yes, they are going to have a poison against Mohammad that absolutely would prove him evil if they were true.

The people who took the position of political, religious, and all levels of leadership, didn't believe in Mohammad, but just as previous revelations were distorted by the very deceivers who the books came to expose and counter with a real genuine leadership to balance the world out, and bring balance and justice to the world by exposing these deceivers and their falsehood,  yes, Islam was also infiltrated.

This includes Sunni and Shiite hadiths. 

There is poison in both of them. But don't be afraid of hadiths from any one to fall in your cup, for if one wing of a fly is poison, in the other is the cure.

The hadiths although filled with poison are also faced with insights. I suggest ignoring the rating of "good" "authentic" "weak" "established" "trusted" or "fabricated" and rather, only go them if you seek insights into Quran. That is they are only useful to perceives things in Quran and to compliment the Quran and when use towards other, to reinforce a proper interpretation of Quran that is proved by Quran but you start with the hadith to show the view, to show it's not your own and has proof in the legacy of those who knew the Quran best, lest every persons just babbles about the Quran with no proof what so ever claiming they have the right interpretation.

Yea, so sure, you can cherry pick the things you like and ignore the things that conflict with your empathy which did not come from old books of mythology, but were always in your evolution. 

Lots of nasty crap in the Jewish OT and Bible too. 

I think most humans ARE decent, but for all the people that use their holy book to justify good, there are plenty that use that same holy book to justify harm to others. 

Our evolutionary tribalism is why even under the same umbrella label, there are always sub sects that fight each other over how to interpret the holy writing and or whom to follow and how to follow, for good or bad.

IT IS CHERRY PICKING in every religion, both the non violent sects and the violent sects. 

Point is, be it a non violent Christian, or non violent Jew or non violent Muslim, there are other competing sub sects in all those religions who read the same holy writings and justify violence. Point is, if there were a "correct" interpretation, there would be no argument between different sects of the same religions. 


Religion has never been, nor ever will be a perfect way of conducting political diplomacy. You CANT get rid of any religion, no. But if all sides think they got it right, and all sub sects think they got it right, then all that can do is cause division. 

BUT, if everyone decides to leave religion outside of politics, and everyone agrees to protect everyone equally, then anything political can be based on common needs instead of common religious beliefs.

[WinterHold]

I take the Quran to be a special case, and accept the "leap of faith". I publicly admit it: I believed in the book due to the design of the universe, then the deeds it advocates -including charity, respecting others and defend one's self, family and friends, prohibition of pedophilia...etc-.

I won't claim that there is an evidence but that. To me personally; that is enough for me to believe:

I didn't ask you about your beliefs and I already knew that you thought magic book was special.  I was asking whether or not you realized that the process you just criticized roundly as a game of desert phone tag was exactly the process used to cobble together magic book?  

Then, why did you say:

You realize that the same process was used to create magic book...don't you.....?

Your statement was begging for my answer !
You asked if I "realized that..." ;
I answered "Yes; because..."

That seems like normal conversation to me !

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There's alot of that in every religion.

In the specific case of this twelver bullshit and "deceivers"......very few people act out or on the truth of their religious ideology.  MK doesn't do what a convinced, committed, and rational person would do confronted with demon locks or demons (suspend your disbelief, lol).  

In a perceptual reality where an absolute state holds divine right of kingship over all of mankind, and where demons are holding influence over men...and where some men are themselves, in truth, the demonic influence....having exhausted all of your magical cantrips and mantras to no effect.... what is the next logical, compassionate, and morally upright step...to the problem of all the demons in the world, running the states of earth, suppressing the goodness of your own hidden prince, and doing untold evil upon your fellow man in the process?   

This is the truly subversive effect of this type of religious ideology.  Setting up a situation where a good person begins to consider the unthinkable.

Absolutely. It's amazing to me how each religious person doesn't notice that every other religion uses basically the same arguments as them to try and magicallify their books and dogma. I feel like if I'd been raised religious, this is the fact that would have shaken me out of it. But it's hard to know how different my thinking patterns would be if I was stifled as a kid and fed dogshit instead of encouraged to think critically.

Humans tend to "copycat" the exact same pattern of their parents in order to fit in in their society.
That's why you get masses of copies, that believe in the same idea, piled up together they form a nation.

Thinking for your own is the challenge of the ages; it's very rare to see black sheep that differed from their society. But it's so common to see slaves for the institution that went on serving it, just because they were raised that way.

I don't know you personally; but I won't put aside the possibility that if you were raised around here, maybe you would get infected and become a "copy" like so many.

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So the argument from design is what I favor when I speak about God. 

How do you reconcile this in the face of numerous examples of poor 'design'?

Boru

But who said that the "standard" of either something is "properly designed, or poorly designed" is the correct standard?

[Brian37]

Atlas, in my personal experience, I witness a miracle in the hadiths, in that many of them have insights to Quran which will bring the Quran to life and manifest it's wonders, if you try to perceive them verified in Quran.

There is much poison and falsehood in them, and ilmel rijaal reliance is that of circular reasoning at the center.

No you DID NOT.

You had a lifetime of indoctrination just like Christians and Jews and Buddhists and Hindus.

Someone sold you a story and you fell for it. 

Dangle a utopia in front of most, and they will fall for it.

The "poison" isn't in humans of any label. The "flaw" is in our species buys what feels good to them because their parents sell it to them before they can think for themselves. 

If "personal experience" worked like every religion claimed then there should be only one religion.

[WinterHold]

Additionally, what use is a leap of faith if you have a credible argument, and what use is a credible argument if you're making a leap of faith?

In this case, the leap of faith IS the credible argument.
In life we take lots of "leaps of faith", even when our lives are the thing at stake.

Let me give you an example: flying. All of us ride plains, but do you know that there is always a chance of 1 in every 11 Million do die.
For cars, it's 1 for every 5000 car crashes. But there is a chance.

My "leap of faith" is based on this 1 in 11 Million. And guess what? planes DO crash, and accidents DO happen. So when we take the matter of "rare odds"; it is not quite wrong or illogical to carry the stand I take; that's why you have a seat belt in your car. Who should I believe, you or the engineer working at Mustang? If I believed you; I might fly out of the window someday due to an accident because "Khem and his buddies declined the 1 in 5000 accident possibility"..

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I believed in the book due to the design of the universe...

How does belief in design lead to belief in a specific book?  You're using design as a sign of confirmation after the fact of already having taken the leap to believe in the Quran, but you believed in that specific book first.  How does design uniquely point to this book rather than that one?

No; the "leap" is the step taken after the observation takes place.
First, you notice something strange about the world and about the universe.
Second, you begin to search for explanations. One of the explanations is stated in the Quran.

There are so many explanations out there, rejecting all explanations is what you are: atheism.

Personally; I take the explanation in the Quran for the design to be a perfect sign of confirmation: the design led me to search, the found explanation led me to believe that the design served a purpose, both are dependent on each other.

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Atlas, in my personal experience, I witness a miracle in the hadiths, in that many of them have insights to Quran which will bring the Quran to life and manifest it's wonders, if you try to perceive them verified in Quran.

There is much poison and falsehood in them, and ilmel rijaal reliance is that of circular reasoning at the center.

Gray regions which are neither white or black, are an instrument for your doom in terms of religion:

Sura 4, The Quran:
(82) Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

Sura 3, The Quran:
(78) There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not from Allah. It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it!

So I really have to ask you; MK: is what you're reading really coming from God, or a distorted gray region, read with a twisted tongue so that we think it's holy; but it isn't holy at all ?