Substitutionary Atonement! WTF?

[AFTT47]

Yeah, he can change the law, and he should. If he did exist, and was just. Because creating a place of suffering, and sending people down there by default isn't just. Judging people mostly based on whether they worship him or not, instead of their deeds in life, isn't just.

Spilling blood doesn't change anyone. Saying a prayer doesn't change you either, hence the need for regular revivals in churches.

He cannot change the law because you cannot enter the presence of God as a sinner.

Therefore if you cannot exist in Gods presence (as a sinner) then you must exist in a place removed from Gods presence, which by that very nature would be hell.

All good things come from God.

If God is love, there would be no love in that place.

If God is peace, there would be no peace in that place.

If God is joy there would be no joy in that place

If to be with God meant the end of fear, you'd know nothing but fear in that place.

If to be with God meant the end of suffering, you know nothing but suffering in that place.

I think you get the point.

Say we use the sun as an analogy for God, if the sun went away would that not cause suffering?

You call yourself an atheist, and by your own volition choose to remove yourself from the presence of God.

You can't blame God for that...

If that's how things were I could blame him for not making himself known to me. The only thing I have heard of God are ridiculous stories which are completely out of step with the world I live in. To make matters worse, there are a plethora of other similar stories of other gods, all equally ridiculous.

For God to create the bizarro universe you describe and not make himself known makes him culpable of all the people who end up in Hell because they were unaware of his existence.

[Chad32]

Yeah, he can change the law, and he should. If he did exist, and was just. Because creating a place of suffering, and sending people down there by default isn't just. Judging people mostly based on whether they worship him or not, instead of their deeds in life, isn't just.

Spilling blood doesn't change anyone. Saying a prayer doesn't change you either, hence the need for regular revivals in churches.

He cannot change the law because you cannot enter the presence of God as a sinner.

Therefore if you cannot exist in Gods presence (as a sinner) then you must exist in a place removed from Gods presence, which by that very nature would be hell.

All good things come from God.

If God is love, there would be no love in that place.

If God is peace, there would be no peace in that place.

If God is joy there would be no joy in that place

If to be with God meant the end of fear, you'd know nothing but fear in that place.

If to be with God meant the end of suffering, you know nothing but suffering in that place.

I think you get the point.

Say we use the sun as an analogy for God, if the sun went away would that not cause suffering?

You call yourself an atheist, and by your own volition choose to remove yourself from the presence of God.

You can't blame God for that...

Well god needs to get over his hangups with things he doesn't like. Goodness, peace, love, and joy are subjective things, and obviously it's very debatable that someone so obsessed with death and blood would be the sole source of these positive traits. Besides, you can have some level of positive things in the presence of negative things. Humans live that way all their lives.

Yeah, there's a reason why sun worship is one of the oldest forms of worship in Human history. It's obviously there, and the effects can obviously be seen and felt. If any god was this obvious, we wouldn't need faith to believe he exists.

I can blame god for being so stuck up his own ass that he refuses to countenance people who are different from him, and if some of his followers are to be believed, created a place of fire and torture to send people by default because he's spiteful.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

There is no such thing as substitutionary atonement, it is simply atonement.

Death (eternal separation from God) is the penalty for sin.

God cannot simply change his law and be a just God.

The anology of substituting ones sick grandfather fails because that sacrifice doesn't change the heart of the one who committed the crime.

The blood of Christ completely changes a person's nature so that they are no longer the same person that  committed the sin, they have the same nature / spirit of Christ (the term 'Christian' means "to be like Christ ") which is blameless.

Therefore when one receives the holy spirit, they cannot even be accused of sin, let alone be judged for it.

Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?  - John 8:46

This is nothing new.

In the time of Moses during the Passover, it was required for one to have the blood of a lamb displayed on third door in order for the angel of death to "pass over" their door.

That was just a foreshadowing of what was to come.

Can you name one thing that Yeshua supposedly did that makes him worthy of being worshipped?

[Huggy Bear]

There is no such thing as substitutionary atonement, it is simply atonement.

Death (eternal separation from God) is the penalty for sin.

God cannot simply change his law and be a just God.

The anology of substituting ones sick grandfather fails because that sacrifice doesn't change the heart of the one who committed the crime.

The blood of Christ completely changes a person's nature so that they are no longer the same person that  committed the sin, they have the same nature / spirit of Christ (the term 'Christian' means "to be like Christ ") which is blameless.

Therefore when one receives the holy spirit, they cannot even be accused of sin, let alone be judged for it.

Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?  - John 8:46

This is nothing new.

In the time of Moses during the Passover, it was required for one to have the blood of a lamb displayed on third door in order for the angel of death to "pass over" their door.

That was just a foreshadowing of what was to come.

Can you name one thing that Yeshua supposedly did that makes him worthy of being worshipped?

Created the universe, hows that for starters?

[The Grand Nudger]

Insufficient.

[Huggy Bear]

Explain yourself.

[Mystic]

Can you name one thing that Yeshua supposedly did that makes him worthy of being worshipped?

Created the universe, hows that for starters?

It's not, ironically, the only thing that can make him worthy worship is how he favors and bestows his grace upon creation, but that is through people like Adam, Noah, and Moses, Aaron, Jesus, etc.....

What they deny and hate the most, is what is needed for them to understand why God is worthy of worship, that is the connecting Captains and those beautiful names of God who are instances of the holy spirit.

Jesus wasn't just talking about himself, he was talking about the morning star from the family of David, and that is position of the morning star of the family of Abraham for example, and that was before after Adam, Seth, and Enoch who was created in the Image of God as well, the chosen leaders and kings like Samuel and Saul.

And revelation is a means of mercy to clarify the guidance of God but the guidance of God is the Guides appointed by him.

That is the only way we can know God truly, or otherwise, like they also say morality and God will be subjective.

[The Grand Nudger]

@Huggy
Explain -yourself-.  Would you worship Baal if Baal had created the universe? How about me? Would you worship me if I created the universe?

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Can you name one thing that Yeshua supposedly did that makes him worthy of being worshipped?

Created the universe, hows that for starters?

So Yeshua is God?

[Huggy Bear]

@Huggy
Explain -yourself-.  Would you worship Baal if Baal had created the universe?  How about me?  Would you worship me if I created the universe?

Yep.

---

Created the universe, hows that for starters?

So Yeshua is God?

Yep.