Substitutionary Atonement! WTF?

[brewer]

@Huggy
Explain -yourself-.  Would you worship Baal if Baal had created the universe?  How about me?  Would you worship me if I created the universe?

Yep.

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So Yeshua is God?

Yep.

Then you need to start worshiping the singularity.

[Chad32]

There's a long list of gods that may have created the world, but even if one of them exists and did, the current state of the world is an obvious sign that it doesn't know how to run the world. Like if I created a car that doesn't run properly, but still expect people to praise me for it.

[brewer]

Have any of you taken a look at the Indulgences? Those catholics and their church. Where do they come up with this shit?

https://www.catholic.org/prayers/indulgw.php

[RDK1]

There's a long list of gods that may have created the world, but even if one of them exists and did, the current state of the world is an obvious sign that it doesn't know how to run the world. Like if I created a car that doesn't run properly, but still expect people to praise me for it.

[brewer]

There's a long list of gods that may have created the world, but even if one of them exists and did, the current state of the world is an obvious sign that it doesn't know how to run the world. Like if I created a car that doesn't run properly, but still expect people to praise me for it.

Ya could have just kudos'd him. But glad you agree.

[RDK1]

If the world had been created to be perfect, there would never have been an opportunity to show what forgiveness is. There is no need to show the power of a doctor if no one has ever been sick. If a loving God wants to show us the depths of His love, He would forgive us for all of the things that we would regret if faced with a loving God. The Hell thing has come from a parable that Jesus spoke about sin. If a man was not forgiven, that man would live with the guilt of his evil forever. Jesus would compromise His gift of love to the world if He chose to not love His enemies and send someone away with the gift of eternal life with it spent suffering the whole time. Heaven and Hell are conditions of the heart. Being forgiven gives us a fresh start so that we know God never wanted anyone to suffer at His hand for anything.

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Can you name one thing that Yeshua supposedly did that makes him worthy of being worshipped?

Created the universe, hows that for starters?

If love is not proven, it is meaningless. Love given to good people is easy. Love given to mean people is monumental. We have a world which displays both good and evil. Jesus represented to us a chance to find the author of love. Forgiveness lets God love you anyway.

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Have any of you taken a look at the Indulgences? Those catholics and their church. Where do they come up with this shit?

https://www.catholic.org/prayers/indulgw.php

Men have always taken liberties with their supposed revelations. A single truth could never have degenerated into so much trash unless there were lies ready to be offered up and believed. I can't believe all of the religious trash myself. A kind man was killed trying to heal and do miracles for anyone who wanted them. If a lover goes to His death without having hurt anyone, His innocence represents a sacrifice of His life to show no retaliation against anyone. That's what He did. Don't add a bunch of mysticism to this simple event. He could have cursed us but He didn't.

[brewer]

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Have any of you taken a look at the Indulgences? Those catholics and their church. Where do they come up with this shit?

https://www.catholic.org/prayers/indulgw.php

Men have always taken liberties with their supposed revelations.  A single truth could never have degenerated into so much trash unless there were lies ready to be offered up and believed.  I can't believe all of the religious trash myself.  A kind man was killed trying to heal and do miracles for anyone who wanted them.  If a lover goes to His death without having hurt anyone,  His innocence represents a sacrifice of His life to show no retaliation against anyone.  That's what He did.  Don't add a bunch of mysticism to this simple event.  He could have cursed us but He didn't.

You're a loon.

[The Grand Nudger]

@Huggy
Explain -yourself-.  Would you worship Baal if Baal had created the universe?  How about me?  Would you worship me if I created the universe?

Yep.

You clearly have low standards. I wouldn;t be worthy of worship if I created the universe -and- gifted you with a 12 inch dick. I wonder if the being you worship is pleased with your feckless allegiance, though?

[ignoramus]

I don't think God's fussy about the standards of his clientele.
I'm not aware of anyone being knocked back...

[Godscreated]

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He cannot change the law because you cannot enter the presence of God as a sinner.

Therefore if you cannot exist in Gods presence (as a sinner) then you must exist in a place removed from Gods presence, which by that very nature would be hell.

All good things come from God.

If God is love, there would be no love in that place.

If God is peace, there would be no peace in that place.

If God is joy there would be no joy in that place

If to be with God meant the end of fear, you'd know nothing but fear in that place.

If to be with God meant the end of suffering, you know nothing but suffering in that place.

I think you get the point.

Say we use the sun as an analogy for God, if the sun went away would that not cause suffering?

You call yourself an atheist, and by your own volition choose to remove yourself from the presence of God.

You can't blame God for that...

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If that's how things were I could blame him for not making himself known to me. The only thing I have heard of God are ridiculous stories which are completely out of step with the world I live in. To make matters worse, there are a plethora of other similar stories of other gods, all equally ridiculous.

For God to create the bizarro universe you describe and not make himself known makes him culpable of all the people who end up in Hell because they were unaware of his existence.

 But He has, you are arguing against Him, if you had no idea at all you would not be having this conversation. 
Being out of step with this world is exactly what God wants from us, He has said to us, "be holy as I'm holy." God meant that He is nothing like sinful man and that we are to be nothing like the sinful world.

Yes there are many stories about many gods and what those gods have done, yet none have given such a price as the God of the Bible has to redeem man back to himself.
 
 God did not create a bizarro universe, man's sin cause all of creation to be cursed. Before sin this universe was perfect and the only humans that ever saw it in that condition were Adam and Eve. Those who are unaware of Christ will be judged by God in a just and fair way according to His will. However there is enough of the original creation left that God has said that no man can look at the natural world and be without excuse of knowing He created it. Thus knowing He does exist.

GC

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Who the fuck comes up with this shite!
I like it, but only because it sounds like divine legal gobbledygook. lol!

"Yeah, I know I killed all those people your honour, because I'm a sick fuck, but hey, here, take my 90 year old father instead and we'll just call it even!
  (*whispers* shhhh... don't tell anyone but the old man's got cancer and will be dead anyway soon!)

And people really believe God would come up with stuff like this? When he can make anything happen anyway? Pretty bloody convoluted isn't it?

Obviously it wasn't God as it wasn't "invented" until the middle ages (below).

As an ignoramus, I'm genuinely curious now to know what core beliefs in the current modern day bible are actually original?


https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/artic...atonement/

Skeptics commonly criticize core Christian beliefs by claiming that they were not really held by the earliest Christians. Instead, we are told, these beliefs were invented post facto by the institutional church.

The classic example of such an argument has to do with the divinity of Jesus. The earliest followers of Jesus didn’t really believe that Jesus was divine, this argument goes; it was only the later institutional church, under political pressure from Emperor Constantine, that insisted Jesus must have divine status. Thus, some argue, the belief that Jesus is God is not really, well, Christian.

Substitutionary Atonement

This same sort of argument has also been applied to other doctrines, particularly the substitutionary nature of the atonement. Critical scholars, led by the classic work of Gustaf Aulén, have long argued that the earliest Christians did not believe that Christ died as a substitute for sinners. Instead, they say, these Christians believed what is known as the “Christus victor” view of the atonement—the idea that Jesus’s death on the cross (and resurrection) conquered the Devil and other forces that held people in bondage. On this view, Christ did not die in place of rebellious sinners but instead rescued victims from a fallen world

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 All the references you have given comes from "critics," what were you expecting critics to say and how do you believe that they being critics would impress Christians. 

 Christ's death pays for all the sin of those who accept Him as their savior. He is our atonement, that is covering, when God the father see those who have chosen Christ He sees His Son's perfection and thus we are forgiven of our violations against Him, making us sinless in His eyes. This has been the most important thing in the scriptures from the OT through the NT, it is not a middle age concoction. Also to rescue us from a fallen world someone perfect had to die for us, our death can not even pay/atone for our sins. Our physical death is the result of our sin, the eternal punishment is for those who die with their sin, the Christian dies a forgiven person, sinless.

GC