Peterson's 12 Rules For Life, have you heard of this?

[The Grand Nudger]

You know, I'm losing a little bit of my esteem for you right now.  This is some pretty silly shit. 

I'm pretty unsurprised that you say that.  However, before solving a problem, the first step should be to determine WHY it's a problem.

It's a problem because bigoted nitwits rely on factually incorrect information to reenforce their existing douchebaggery.  Again, Benny, The Real Problem™ of racism..is racism.

A related problem is when non bigoted nitwits rely on their factually incorrect information to normalize those assholes racism..unintentionally, ofc... and then pretend that they're being intellectual when engaging in conversations like these............

Right, and that's the essence of the social contract-- you extend protections, because when you're in front of the firing squad, you will have a reasonable expectation that they'll stand up for you, too.

I think the insistent racism in the south very much stems very much from the fact that their participation in the social contract as outlined in the US constitution was made under duress-- they fought against that contract, lost, and the contract has been imposed on them, and enforced by the federal government.  They are stuck 100 years in the past.  Would you say that's a fair description of the current situation as they see it?

How does that account for racism in the yankee north?  Surprise, their schools and churches and neighborhoods are more segregated than the ones down here. But..yeah, sure, alot of southerners play with the Lost Cause interpretation of the civil war, which is another  (and one of the first) example of the normalizing propaganda of white supremacy..and how we ended up with all of those confederate statues in the south.  Truth is, most of the guys who fought in the confederacy didn't own a fucking slave..and they sure as shit weren't fighting for that cause themselves.  They could be killed by union soldiers or killed by confederate soldiers as negro sympathizers.  They got fucking had, too.

Modern day racists aren't stuck in any past that actually happened..they're stuck in a fantasy..informed by white supremacist propaganda.

It's all now you see. Yesterday won't be over until tomorrow and tomorrow began ten thousand years ago. For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it, there is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July afternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are laid and ready in the woods and the furled flags are already loosened to break out and Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and his hat in one hand probably and his sword in the other looking up the hill waiting for Longstreet to give the word and it's all in the balance, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't even begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet but there is still time for it not to begin against that position and those circumstances which made more men than Garnett and Kemper and Armistead and Wilcox look grave yet it's going to begin, we all know that, we have come too far with too much at stake and that moment doesn't need even a fourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time with all this much to lose than all this much to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the golden dome of Washington itself to crown with desperate and unbelievable victory the desperate gamble, the cast made two years ago; or to anyone who ever sailed a skiff under a quilt sail, the moment in 1492 when somebody thought This is it: the absolute edge of no return, to turn back now and make home or sail irrevocably on and either find land or plunge over the world's roaring rim.

-Faulkner 

[bennyboy]

It's a problem because bigoted nitwits rely on factually incorrect information to reenforce their existing douchebaggery.  Again, Benny, The Real Problem™ of racism..is racism.

A related problem is when non bigoted nitwits rely on their factually incorrect information to normalize those assholes racism..unintentionally, ofc... and then pretend that they're being intellectual when engaging in conversations like these............

I'm doing all the work here. If something is intrinsically problematic, show how. If the problem is related to some cherished value, define it. I think you answered my question, and it is on that basis that I'm trying to understand the position.

Right, and that's the essence of the social contract-- you extend protections, because when you're in front of the firing squad, you will have a reasonable expectation that they'll stand up for you, too.

I think the insistent racism in the south very much stems very much from the fact that their participation in the social contract as outlined in the US constitution was made under duress-- they fought against that contract, lost, and the contract has been imposed on them, and enforced by the federal government.  They are stuck 100 years in the past.  Would you say that's a fair description of the current situation as they see it?

How does that account for racism in the yankee north?  But..yeah, sure, alot of southerners play with the Lost Cause interpretation of the civil war, which is another  (and one of the first) example of the normalizing propaganda of white supremacy..and how we ended up with all of those confederate statues in the south.  Truth is, most of the guys who fought in the confederacy didn't own a fucking slave..and they sure as shit weren't fighting for that cause themselves.  They could be killed by union soldiers or killed by confederate soldiers as negro sympathizers.  They got fucking had, too.

--edit--
[I kind of just went off on what I was thinking about doing, not really answering your last post very well-- I'm off to work, but I'll try and clean up some loose ends tonight.]


I think the general perception over almost the entire world is that black people are savage and untrustworthy. Certainly, the populations of most Asian countries will say so, and quite unapologetically.

The next questions would be-- is it a fact that there are racial differences, or is it due to cultural or economic conditions? Or is it simply just a big fat lie, common in almost all regions of the world? Or am I making shit up, and nobody thinks that at all, and I'm just pulling it out of my own racist ass?

In some metrics, black people at least in the US, clearly ARE inferior-- in average IQ scores for example. Then we have to ask why-- is it because the IQ tests are biased toward white participants? Or because socioeconomic conditions lead to bad education? Or because of differential intelligences (intellectual tasks vs. social skills vs. physical intelligence), and only a narrow range of those being tested?

And then, we have to ask-- EVEN IF there are actual racial differences, should it matter at all with regard to rights of citizenship? I'd certainly argue not.

Please note that all of this is quite explicitly racist. But when you look at a lot of correlations, you see that being black correlates with IQ, with crime, with poverty, with certain diseases, and so on-- it's quite the cluster of correlations. And it's easy to see that any one of these could have a causal effect on the others or that they could feed off of each other in nasty ways-- and knowing which causes which (or whether it's a vicious circle) matters when it comes to actually deciding how to solve the problem-- with more than lip service, but with steps intended actually to get to the root of the problem.

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm doing all the work here.  If something is intrinsically problematic, show how.  If the problem is related to some cherished value, define it.  I think you answered my question, and it is on that basis that I'm trying to understand the position.

I'm not humoring you here..because to do so would be to lose -all- respect for you.

I think the general perception over almost the entire world is that black people are savage and untrustworthy.  Certainly, the populations of most Asian countries will say so, and quite unapologetically.

The next questions would be-- is it a fact that there are racial differences, or is it due to cultural or economic conditions?  Or is it simply just a big fat lie, common in almost all regions of the world?

Gee..that's a real headscratcher.......

Or am I making shit up, and nobody thinks that at all, and I'm just pulling it out of my own racist ass?

You're telling me that there are alot of racists in the world?  Shit, you've really knocked me over..I never knew......

In some metrics, black people at least in the US, clearly ARE inferior-- in average IQ for example.  Then we have to ask why-- is it because the IQ tests are biased toward white participants?  Or because socioeconomic conditions lead to bad education?

Oh for fucks sake Benny.  

And then, we have to ask-- EVEN IF there are actual racial differences, should it matter at all with regard to rights of citizenship?  I'd certainly argue not.

...................................

You're not just reading the alt right script..at this point, you're following the playbook too.

[bennyboy]

...................................

You're not just reading the alt right script..at this point, you're following the playbook too.

No, I'm not even just doing that.  I'm literally quoting from an alt-right site.

If someone makes a claim which you react to emotionally, the first thing you have to do is see if they're right.  Then you have to decide whether it matters.  I'm going to give some evidence, which is being used to demonstrate that race / IQ / income are covariant: i.e. that white people make more on average because they have higher IQ scores on average, and high-paying jobs require high IQs.

http://aristocratsofthesoul.com/average-...ethnicity/

This is an explicitly alt-right site.  They give figures for iq by race, and also for income by race.  It claims that Ashkenazy Jews have the highest average IQ at 110, and that black Americans have an average IQ of 85.  Here's something I dug up on Wikipedia, but it's not in a main page, but rather in a pretty heated discussion of whether the data is valid or should be allowed:


It seems clear to me that this is a battleground issue, and for very obvious reasons. If the alt-right can prove the correlation they're claiming, the PC will have a hard time claiming that income inequality is due to deliberate oppression. If the PC left can disprove the correlation, or discredit it on basis that the data has been collected dishonestly, then the alt-right will have no basis upon which to build a case for white supremacy.

The main wikipedia page has quite a lot of sources, and randomly clicking on them seems (so far) to indicate that there are in fact differences in IQ, and that they've controlled for environment (for example, in adoption studies). However, there are some adoption studies which shows that adopted black children in good environments can still thrive, so. . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

See the process? Right-wing assholes make claims, then you go research the claims to see if they're true. Then, when you know the truth, you use it to inform social policy.

[The Grand Nudger]

No, I'm not even just doing that.  I'm literally quoting from an alt-right site.

If someone makes a claim which you react to emotionally, the first thing you have to do is see if they're right.  Then you have to decide whether it matters.  I'm going to give some evidence, which is being used to demonstrate that race / IQ / income are covariant: i.e. that white people make more on average because they have higher IQ scores on average, and high-paying jobs require high IQs.

You know.... we just had an entire thread about this.....................

In any case, high paying jobs require networking. Ask yourself why networking might be difficult in a segregated environment. Say you manage to overcome that hurdle? Well, then you'll have to contend with the fact that a black sounding name on an app or resume means you are less likely to be called back. Say you overcome that hurdle and actually get the job? Womp womp, african americans are paid less than whites at -every- education level.

Billybob knows a guy, "William" performs well on an app, and he's gonna make more than his genius african american counterpart who just jumped through the hurdles above.

It seems clear to me that this is a battleground issue, and for very obvious reasons.  If the alt-right can prove the correlation they're claiming, the PC will have a hard time claiming that income inequality is due to deliberate oppression.  If the PC left can disprove the correlation, or discredit it on basis that the data has been collected dishonestly, then the alt-right will have no basis upon which to build a case for white supremacy.

Its the social justice warriors, not the pc folks, that would be charging forward on that..and no..they wouldn't have a hard time establishing the truth of that contention regardless - but it might be worthwhile to note that deliberate oppression doesn't really speak to the reality or totality of the situation.

The main wikipedia page has quite a lot of sources, and randomly clicking on them seems (so far) to indicate that there are in fact differences in IQ, and that they've controlled for environment (for example, in adoption studies).  However, there are some adoption studies which shows that adopted black children in good environments can still thrive, so. . .  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

See the process?  Right-wing assholes make claims, then you go research the claims to see if they're true.  Then, when you know the truth, you use it to inform social policy.

Yes...Benny, I see the process, and I see the process for what it is.  It's because I see the process, and see the process for what it is, that I know when someone has swallowed the koolaid. Let me ask you this, when right wing assholes crammed white victimization into your head..did you do your research and just decide it was true.......or...?

[Neo-Scholastic]

Intelligence is not the only metric of success and certainly not a basis for dismissing the inherent equal value of all people.

[bennyboy]

You know.... we just had an entire thread about this.....................

In any case, high paying jobs require networking.  Ask yourself why networking might be difficult in a segregated environment.  Say you manage to overcome that hurdle?  Well, then you'll have to contend with the fact that a black sounding name on an app or resume means you are less likely to be called back.  Say you overcome that hurdle and actually get the job?  Womp womp, african americans are paid less than whites at -every- education level.

No doubt.

Yes...Benny, I see the process, and I see the process for what it is.  It's because I see the process, and see the process for what it is, that I know when someone has swallowed the koolaid.  Let me ask you this, when right wing assholes crammed white victimization into your head..did you do your research and just decide it was true.......or...?

No, dude.  It's mostly you.  I was annoyed by the PC Left fart sniffing.  But you've doubled down on the black victimization, repeatedly saying I'm carrying the white supremacist script.  So. . . I looked to see what that might be, and it turns out that the alt-right is attempting to use scientific facts to minimize the effectiveness of claims of oppression.  And let me make an aside here, and say that the oppression is obvious to me-- I'm inclined to believe that the many, many videos of cops beating up and even killing innocent black men are the tip of the ice berg.  I can't think that if a white person faced the same treatment, it wouldn't produce a media sensation at least as strong (probably much stronger).  You also make a compelling narrative about racist hiring practices, which I'm perfectly willing to accept.  Nobody's going to hire a law associate named Shoshonda Brown unless she's 2x better than anyone else on the field, I suspect.

Anyway, back to the alt-right script.  Do you agree that there's an IQ difference, and that IQ correlates with income, or do you deny this to be the case?  

There are several possibilities:
1) The test is bullshit (either it's culturally biased, or it doesn't actually measure intelligence that matters)
2) The results are either a lie, or are reported in a way so biased that it constitutes fraud.
3) Black people, on average, are in fact not as intelligent as white people, on average, and this hurts their chance to generate income.

And since we're talking about "equal education," consider SAT scores:


And this is NOT alt-right propaganda material.  It's also a test only of those who attempted the SAT-- what % of each population do you think even bothered to try? I'd bet the reality over the entire population is even WORSE than these stats show.

You can accuse me of whatever you want, but I recommend you bring facts better than what google will furnish with about 10 seconds of typing.

My current inclination is to hope that even though IQ after puberty is said by most psychologists to be about 75% or 80% due to heritability, that black children are so disadvantaged that serious developmental issues (damage due to drug use, malnutrition and so on) is snowballing.  Because if so, then we could attack problems of poverty, drug use, and so on, and hope to yield an improvement in scores, in income, and in quality of life.

---

Intelligence is not the only metric of success and certainly not a basis for dismissing the inherent equal value of all people.

That's right.  I think almost all of us here believe that there is INTRINSIC value to humanity, and that each person has intangible or dormant assets that might manifest in the proper conditions.  And IQ doesn't refer to a person's nature-- their community spirit, their integrity, their willingness to stand up for the disenfranchised and so on, or simply their willingness to roll up their sleeves and do a productive day's work.

I can't imagine that the average alt-right person would score higher than the average black person on measures of compassion, on social skills, or on not-being-a-dick-ness.

[The Grand Nudger]

You know.... we just had an entire thread about this.....................

In any case, high paying jobs require networking.  Ask yourself why networking might be difficult in a segregated environment.  Say you manage to overcome that hurdle?  Well, then you'll have to contend with the fact that a black sounding name on an app or resume means you are less likely to be called back.  Say you overcome that hurdle and actually get the job?  Womp womp, african americans are paid less than whites at -every- education level.

No doubt.

Then we're done with this one, QED.

No, dude.  It's mostly you.  

A moment ago it was no doubt...now it's just me.  Get your shit together before you try again.

-If- you solved whatever malnutrition and drug problem you think is causing the issue (both massively prevalent in whites, btw, but facts, who fucking cares..right?), and then improved test scores...somehow, you would still find that it is difficult to network in a segregated environment, that racial bias leads to low levels of callbacks, and that landing the job leads to lower pay at all education levels.

The Real Problem™ of racism, is racism. Not that blacks are dumb malnourished drug addicts with low test scores..hurr durr.

[bennyboy]

A moment ago it was no doubt...now it's just me.  Get your shit together before you try again.

I'm not sure what your objection here is. I know there's racism, and it's real. People are treated like shit, to such a degree that their constitutional rights to liberty and the pursuit of happiness are clearly violated. But we're not talking about that right now. We're talking about employment chances and the ability to earn a high income.

-If- you solved whatever malnutrition and drug problem you think is causing the issue (both  massively prevalent in whites, btw, but facts, who fucking cares..right?),  and then improved test scores...somehow, you would still find that it is difficult to network in a segregated environment, that racial bias leads to low levels of callbacks, and that landing the job leads to lower pay at all education levels.  

In disregarding environmental catastrophe, you are then saying that black people's poor test scores are due mainly to heritability. If so, then an employer, given a black candidate and say an Asian one, presented with a degree but without specific test scores, would likely go with the very high probability that the Asian person would be more intelligent-- or at least, that the Asian person would have scored better on their SAT tests.

How do you deal with people making decisions based on facts, with the intent of benefiting themselves? Do you impose equality of outcome-- quotas, and so on? What's the point of shouting about racism if there are actual differences among races?

The Real Problem™ of racism, is racism.  Not that blacks are dumb malnourished drug addicts with low test scores..hurr durr.

If by racism, you mean that black people are attacked, insulted, and generally shat upon, then yes, absolutely. It's one thing to correlate various measures of success with race. But to generalize that to a disregard for someone's humanity-- that's a very different thing. The problem is that you conflate one with the other.

[The Grand Nudger]

A moment ago it was no doubt...now it's just me.  Get your shit together before you try again.

I'm not sure what your objection here is.  I know there's racism, and it's real.  People are treated like shit, to such a degree that their constitutional rights to liberty and the pursuit of happiness are clearly violated.  But we're not talking about that right now.  We're talking about employment chances and the ability to earn a high income.

Indeed, and "we" are noting that the problems of employment vis-a-vis racism in america are an inability to network in segregation, racial biases that lead to uneven selection, and disparate pay if selected.

IQ is irrelevant to all of that.  It's not as if good jobs sit you down for an IQ test.   They have no fucking clue what your IQ is.  It may be true that a smarter person operating within privilege can navigate that privilege to a greater extent - and this is why studies that look for a correlation between the two isolate for that effect by removing demographics known to be disadvantaged for social or institutional reasons.  Fun fact, even within those controlled groups....things like smoking, or having been divorced...or possessing a credit card..entirely cancel out whatever professional benefit there is to having a high IQ as it relates to wealth or earnings.  

I wish IQ had a more pronounced and resilient effect, I really do, your boy here aint exactly a dummy...even though I am miscegenated.  Guess I must've got the good brain -and- the good hair.  



 

In disregarding environmental catastrophe, you are then saying that black people's poor test scores are due mainly to heritability.  If so, then an employer, given a black candidate and say an Asian one, presented with a degree but without specific test scores, would likely go with the very high probability that the Asian person would be more intelligent-- or at least, that the Asian person would have scored better on their SAT tests.

How do you deal with people making decisions based on facts?  Do you impose equality of outcome-- quotas, and so on?  What's the point of shouting about racism if there are actual differences among races?

Because racism is a thing regardless of whether or not there are "differences", and those "differences" do not support or justify racism.   

The Real Problem™ of racism, is racism.  Not that blacks are dumb malnourished drug addicts with low test scores..hurr durr.

If by racism, you mean that black people are attacked, insulted, and generally shat upon, then yes, absolutely.  It's one thing to correlate various measures of success with race.  But to generalize that to a disregard for someone's humanity-- that's a very different thing.  The problem is that you conflate one with the other.  Every employer has the right to employ the most intelligent candidate available to them, no?

Racism is also the fact that networking is difficult in segregation, black sounding names don't get calls back, and black people get paid less at every education level.  IQ in't a factor in any of that, they're just the wrong shade of lipstick.

You're starting to toe the line of my ability to take you seriously, or as a non racist who's ingested racist talking points.  How do you suggest that an employer determine he has the most intelligent candidate, look at their skin and say.."well, we all know that blacks are dumber than whites so imma go for Phillip."  No, ofc not..right...but that's all that could be drawn from your white supremacist shitpost.
lol