Peterson's 12 Rules For Life, have you heard of this?

[bennyboy]

Sure, I wasn't aiming it at you specifically, it was a general thought. I've only vaguely been following the huge exchanges here.

Nono, and I didn't feel it was aimed at me.

My answer was a very long-winded way of saying the following: where certain issues are seen as highly political, it's going to be very hard just to consider issues on a case-by-case basis, because the people around you will be more than happy to tell you what wing or ideology you really  are.

This idea of a moderate center, where people have varying ideas about various issues, seems intolerable to the loudest proponents at the extremes-- and unfortunately, it's the loudest ones who normally take up the air time (or fill up the forums or Youtube comments etc. etc.).

[robvalue]

Sure, I wasn't aiming it at you specifically, it was a general thought. I've only vaguely been following the huge exchanges here.

Nono, and I didn't feel it was aimed at me.

My answer was a very long-winded way of saying the following: where certain issues are seen as highly political, it's going to be very hard just to consider issues on a case-by-case basis, because the people around you will be more than happy to tell you what wing or ideology you really  are.

This idea of a moderate center, where people have varying ideas about various issues, seems intolerable to the loudest proponents at the extremes-- and unfortunately, it's the loudest ones who normally take up the air time (or fill up the forums or Youtube comments etc. etc.).

I agree with that. It's a poor debate tactic to label someone up on their behalf, and to think that alone makes some sort of point. Sticking to the issues is much better.

I also agree about the extremes. Also, empty vessels make the most noise, as they say.

[bennyboy]

I really do feel that the internet magnifies divisions. But I suspect that numerically, moderates still outweigh the extremes.

[Mister Agenda]

I believe the question was whether the crime, poverty, and single motherhood rates of African American can be laid at the feet of white oppressors.

I suppose I might want to change the subject too, if I were you.

But I'll play: current welfare policy penalizes intact families. How about not doing that anymore?

[bennyboy]

I believe the question was whether the crime, poverty, and single motherhood rates of African American can be laid at the feet of white oppressors.

I suppose I might want to change the subject too, if I were you.

But I'll play: current welfare policy penalizes intact families. How about not doing that anymore?

I don't know that policy.  Is it that single parents receive larger payments to supplement the missing income, and so poor families are more likely to declare that they are actually single-parent?

[The Grand Nudger]

Disparities in educational funding create and compound disparities in hiring.  Disparities in pay, if hired, then contribute to poverty- an incentive to crime as income.  At the terminus of all of that unequal policing and unequal sentencing creates and maintains broken families. All of this is deliciously profitable, from the operators of stopgap and correctional education facilities..to the business owner paying cut rate wages, to the detention facilities overpopulating to hit margins and then spending a portion of that lobbying for more laws and harsher sentencing... just not to those people affected.

-and then the problems with our current welfare policies kick in. Beyond the issue above I'll point out that the us operates welfare as more of a corporate handout than anything. Walmart is a welfare queen. First creating the problem, and then using the problem as a justification for further exploitation. Hilariously, walmart is losing ground to even cheaper, more exploitative chains. All aided and abetted by our government.

How about we don't do that anymore..while we're at it, just -not- doing this or that and seeing if it might help?

[bennyboy]

Disparities in educational funding create and compound disparities in hiring.

I want to understand exactly what you mean by this sentence. I read it to mean that school districts in poor areas are funded poorly (perhaps in response to low test scores), and that you're talking about disparities in hiring quality teachers. Is that what you mean by it?

Disparities in pay, if hired, then contribute to poverty- an incentive to crime as income.  At the terminus of all of that unequal policing and unequal sentencing creates and maintains broken families.

I think this needs some stats, but my impression is that it's pretty much dead-on. And it's pretty cancerous-- in communities with very high arrest rates, even families still together will be interacting with highly distressed individuals, leading to a pretty bad ride for everyone there. Shows like "Last Chance High" shed a pretty fair light on the struggles of educators to even get kids to be decent human beings, let alone shine academically.

---

As for police brutality, the stats are not so clear-cut. Take killings of civilians by cops-- here's what I've come up with after a few minutes of googling. On the one hand, while 12% of the population are black, 31% of people shot to death by police are black; that's a pretty horrific disparity. On the other hand, about 30% of all police encounters are with black people, which means on a per-encounter basis, black people aren't more likely to be killed than anyone else. Then there's the fact that black cops are equally likely to shoot and kill black people as white ones are-- I would have to assume that they aren't secret KKK members.

So the underlying problem is that police are interacting with black people a lot more than with others. Why is that? Is it because white cops are just itching for an excuse to find black people to interact with? Or is it that police are normally deployed more to impoverished areas because that's where most crimes happen, and that there are a lot of black people in those areas? 3x more black people live in poverty, and 3x more (compared to % of overall population, not in total numbers) are killed, and this correlation must not be ignored. Phoned-in descriptions also are about black people 3x more often, so the description over the wire is often like: "Black male, wearing a hoodie. . . " and so this is going to bring police into contact with black people more often.

Now, I'm sure there's a whole lot of racism in police forces, and this is a major problem. And I've mainly just scanned a few popular articles and some data sheets so far-- so I'm not an expert on the issue now. But it seems to me that numerically, the issue is better explained by economic disparity, and by resultant crime rates in areas, than by racist intent on the part of the police force.

It all comes down to money, man. The way to end ALL these problems is more productivity-- better schools cost money. Better trained teachers and police cost money. Health care, day care, jobs programs. They all cost money. If America can ramp up production, and the government can spend money on engineering projects instead of fucking smart bombs, then a lot of these supposed moral issues are going to be found to be essentially economic ones.

__

Now, I know you're going to get back to calling me a white supremacist. Expected, and accepted, that you will do so. But let me say one thing that I think we can both agree with whole-heartedly-- in all these cases, solutions don't have to be considered mutually exclusive. Focusing more on increasing productivity, and therefore average wages, does NOT mean that racism shouldn't be rooted out of the police force, or that black people should be allowed to be discriminated against in the job market.

I'd also say that the police motto should be: risk death rather than dish it out, because it's your fucking job.


Also, I'm going to pre-empt you and recognize that there's a lot stuff like this out there:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/opi...c958fb21ed

How do you change this, though? How do you tell some middle-aged white mom who sees black kids in hoodies hanging out in the back alley that she's not supposed to call the police? Is she really calling because they're black? What if they were wearing sweater vests or varsity jackets? Is it possible that portrayals of black thugs in the media have fostered a fear of black people who look a particular way?

I don't know the answers, overall. It might just be asshole racists a lot of the time making trouble because they have nothing better to do. But I suspect there's more to it-- the media portrayal of black people as violent has a lot to do with it, and the popularity of gangster rap and so on reinforces this-- a lot of young black people work very hard to LOOK dangerous, don't they? Street cred and all that, no?

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--edit-
I left my original post in hide tags in case you want to get into the issue of policing, but I realize I saw the word "police," and used your last post as a jumping-off point into that issue, even though it wasn't really the main point of your post. On re-reading it, I see a lot of discussion of the economics of racism. That's for sure where I'd start in all this, so I like the direction you're going. My current position is that the race issues comes down to economics-- if poor people are treated differently (or turn out differently), and if black areas have very high poverty rates, then you get a total cluster-fuck correlation: IQ, income, education, crimes, police interactions, police shootings, gang violence. You'd also get a lot of other correlations-- cancer deaths, lifespan differences, musical preferences, even names.

I think the solution is not to cry racism, even though some of it is that-- it's to point to class warfare and lack of productivity; solve class problems, and a lot of that racism is likely to evaporate in my opinion. China's rich people are pumping out skyscrapers and factories, and funding engineering projects all over the world looking like heroes, and our rich people for the most part are sitting on stock portfolios and real estate and funding political campaigns to get controls on fracking removed or whatever. Gotta get people firing on all cylinders. Gotta win gotta win. And THAT is why you educate poor kids, let prisoners out of jail, give people health care and so on-- because fighting to be the best is a lot better than having to learn Mandarin!

(and I know. . . I've studied it. . . fuck Mandarin)

[The Grand Nudger]

I can see that the word "racism" scares the living shit out of you.  Your constant solution is to talk about something else. Poor people are treated differently, and poor black people are still treated differently than poor whites.

Tell me, what word would you prefer be used for class warfare wherein there is a second class of citizen designated by ethnicity, lol? The race issues come down to racism.

Here's a fun question, where do you think more volume and cash in illicit drugs is generated? A ghetto, or a gated community? Tell me why police get deployed where, again?

[bennyboy]

I can see that the word "racism" scares the living shit out of you.  Your constant solution is to talk about something else.  Poor people are treated differently, and poor black people are still treated differently than poor whites.  

Tell me, what word would you prefer be used for class warfare wherein there is a second class of citizen designated by ethnicity, lol?  The race issues come down to racism.

Have I ever, ever said there's no racism? Nope.

The problem with forming policies around racism is that you have to quantify it. "Don't allow racism, stop the fucking racism!" is a great sound byte, a moral truth, and as I've expressed, crucial in America not almost immediately falling to about 10th place in terms of global influence. But what it misses is an actual plan of action. My plan is to place the entire focus on gearing the population for an increase in GDP through increased productivity. EVERYONE, absolutely everyone without regard to race, IQ, or anything else, can contribute more to the prosperity and success of the U.S, creating not only higher incomes but more money for programs that will benefit everyone.

In your last post, you mentioned specific class issues that can be enumerated and addressed. I was agreeing with you that those are a good place to start, and you are coming back at me like I just attacked you-- incoming comments about "normalizing white supremacy" on the way, I suppose. So much for looking for common ground.

Here's a fun question, where do you think more volume and cash in illicit drugs is generated?  A ghetto, or a gated community?  Tell me why police get deployed where, again?

It's because poor people tend to do it in handshakes on a street corner, wearing hoodies or gangsta-rap t-shirts or having tattoos that amount to a bulls-eye. Rich people have the convenience of using a Tupperware party as a civilized front. They obviously do a much better job of hiding their illegal activities.

Tell me, how many people get gunned down in gated communities in bad drug deals? How many people in gated communities are selling drugs within plain sight of a school? Remember, that's what the police are for-- not for sting operations, but for patrolling areas, in particular high-crime areas, looking for. . . crimes. Go figure.

[The Grand Nudger]

I can see that the word "racism" scares the living shit out of you.  Your constant solution is to talk about something else.  Poor people are treated differently, and poor black people are still treated differently than poor whites.  

Tell me, what word would you prefer be used for class warfare wherein there is a second class of citizen designated by ethnicity, lol?  The race issues come down to racism.

Have I ever, ever said there's no racism?  Nope.

The problem with forming policies around racism is that you have to quantify it.  "Don't allow racism, stop the fucking racism!" is a great sound byte, a moral truth, and as I've expressed, crucial in America not almost immediately falling to about 10th place in terms of global influence.  But what it misses is an actual plan of action.  My plan is to place the entire focus on gearing the population for an increase in GDP through increased productivity.  EVERYONE, absolutely everyone without regard to race, IQ, or anything else, can contribute more to the prosperity and success of the U.S, creating not only higher incomes but more money for programs that will benefit everyone.

In your last post, you mentioned specific class issues that can be enumerated and addressed.  I was agreeing with you that those are a good place to start, and you are coming back at me like I just attacked you-- incoming comments about "normalizing white supremacy" on the way, I suppose.  So much for looking for common ground.

It can be and has been quantified..to death.  No amount of that stops you or any other anxious person from desperately trying to talk about something else...which, ofc, is part of why it never gets addressed in our society.  Creating magical "productivity" (in an already productive economy) or directly addressing systemic and institutional racism, gee..which one is going to solve the problem of racism?

I mean, sure..sure, lets conjure up some more stuff...but if we don't solve that other problem..that stuff is going to go where it already goes - and it's not into the hands of disadvantaged populations.

It's because poor people tend to do it in handshakes on a street corner, wearing hoodies or gangsta-rap t-shirts or having tattoos that amount to a bulls-eye.  Rich people have the convenience of using a Tupperware party as a civilized front.  They obviously do a much better job of hiding their illegal activities.

Tell me, how many people get gunned down in gated communities in bad drug deals?  How many people in gated communities are selling drugs within plain sight of a school?  Remember, that's what the police are for-- not for sting operations, but for patrolling areas, in particular high-crime areas, looking for. . . crimes.   Go figure.

Rich white kids sell drugs -at- school.  It's the best place to sell drugs in the whole world, lol. Hell..that's the only reason I even went to school.

Gated communities -are- high crime areas, Benny. Black people and black neighborhoods emphatically do not commit more crime than white people or white neighborhoods. It's not as if this isn't a known known..even to the police. Black people and black communities are simply policed at a higher rate, and then sentenced disproportionately thereafter. We could make five billion more left handed green widgets tomorrow and that would still be true.

You might want to try researching those "plans of action" that have been floated and engaged in..since this seems to be the last sterilized bit of nonsense you have to cling to. I'm not going to do it for you, that bridge is well and truly burnt.

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-Meanwhile, your trickle down economic theory of solving issues of racism is absurd on it's face.  We've seen immense growth in productivity the past few decades.  Didn't solve the problems of racism.  Hell, it didn't even solve white americas economic troubles. The troubles that made them so anxious they thought "hey, let's give white supremacy another try!".