3 simple points to end the discussion with any atheist

[Angrboda]

Fibonacci Flim-Flam

Fossil molluscs. None of these are Golden spirals. © 2008 by John Holden

Fibonacci Foolishness.

A search of the internet, or your local library, will convince you that the Fibonacci series has attracted a lunatic fringe of Fibonacci fanatics who look for mysticism in numbers and in nature. You will find fantastic claims:

• The "golden rectangle" is the "most beautiful" rectangle, and was deliberately used by artists in arranging picture elements within their paintings. (You'd think that they'd always use golden rectangle frames, but they didn't.)
  
• The patterns based on the Fibonacci numbers, the golden ratio and the golden rectangle are those most pleasing to human perception.
  
• Mozart used φ in composing music. (He liked number games, but there's no good evidence that he ever deliberately used φ in a musical composition.)
  
• The Fibonacci sequence is seen in nature, in the arrangement of leaves on a stem of plants, in the pattern of sunflower seeds, spirals of snail's shells, in the number of petals of flowers, in the periods of planets of the solar system, and even in stock market cycles. So pervasive is the sequence in nature (according to these folks) that one begins to suspect that the series has the remarkable ability to be "fit" to most anything!
  
• Nature's processes are "governed" by the golden ratio. Some sources even say that nature's processes are "explained" by this ratio.
  

Of course much of this is patently nonsense. Mathematics doesn't "explain" anything in nature, but mathematical models are very powerful for describing patterns and laws found in nature. I think it's safe to say that the Fibonacci sequence, golden mean, and golden rectangle have never, not even once, directly led to the discovery of a fundamental law of nature. When we see a neat numeric or geometric pattern in nature, we realize we must dig deeper to find the underlying reason why these patterns arise.

Golden Spiral Hype.

The "golden spiral" is a fascinating curve. But it is just one member of a larger family of curves/spirals collectively known as "logarithmic spirals", and there are still other spirals found in nature, such as the "Archimedian spiral." Each spiral is the result of physical processes that are worthy of study, and there's nothing mystical about them.

It's also not difficult to find one of these curves that happens to fit a particular pattern found in nature, even if that pattern is only in the eye of the beholder. But the dirty little secret of all of this is that when such a fit is found, it is seldom exact. The examples from nature that you find in books often have considerable variations from the "golden ideal". Sometimes curves claimed to fit the golden spiral actually are better fit by some other spiral. The mere fact that a curve "fits" physical data gives no clue to the underlying physical processes that produce such a curve in nature. We must dig deeper to find those processes.

Many books about Fibonacci numbers feature dust jackets with pictures of spirals from nature. This helps sell the books, because people like pretty pictures.

Order in the eye of the beholder.

Sometimes the authors who write "gee-whiz" science books for the layman engage in "Fibonacci fakery". We cite a few examples.

Nautilus shells. Consider the commonly seen assertion that shells of the Chambered Nautilus conform to the golden spiral. The photo on the right shows one that has been sawed carefully to show the inner chambers. For comparison, the actual golden spiral is shown on the left. Clearly this creature hadn't read the books! If these two were superimposed they wouldn't match no matter how they were scaled or aligned.

[robvalue]

No one has even come close to presenting evidence that the universe as a whole is designed; let alone this planet.

Quick "are you smarter than a god" quiz. (Yeah I've done this shit before. Sue me!) If you were creating a new universe, for the sole purpose of supporting life, how much of it would you make immediately lethal to life forms?

A) 0%
B) 1%
C) 10%
D) 50%
E) ~100%

[Bob Kelso]

1-Ask about the design of the universe: this question is very embarrassing to atheists, because the universe is full of signs. From the human body to mathematics, to the value of PI, the universe seems like a pattern designed by the same entity.

Ever hear the story about the small fish that found itself in a puddle of water in a street pothole? He thought his little universe was designed just for him too.

Personally I don’t find the question embarrassing in the slightest, I’m always comfortable with “I don’t know but I’m curious to find out the real answer.”

2-Open up the topic of time: human life is timed. Literally there is a cosmic clock, and the sun gives the time for earth. Why do the odds stack up in this life?

Explain how “the sun gives the time for earth”. You seem to be arguing from design, again. Referencing odds in the vast universe we inhabit doesn’t do you many favors either.

3-Why do we have consciousness?

Seems to have something to do with higher brain function if you ask me, for a more definite answer than a layman can give consult the fields in biology.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

1-Ask about the design of the universe: this question is very embarrassing to atheists, because the universe is full of signs. From the human body to mathematics, to the value of PI, the universe seems like a pattern designed by the same entity.

2-Open up the topic of time: human life is timed. Literally there is a cosmic clock, and the sun gives the time for earth. Why do the odds stack up in this life?

3-Why do we have consciousness?

[robvalue]

Here's two possible answers to question 3:

1) Because our brains have evolved to the stage where they are capable of meta-thoughts. How exactly this happened is not yet clear, but using the reliable techniques of science, we might eventually find out.

2) Some bored deity wanted to run a bunch of tests for which it already knew the results, and wanted to punish the parts of the tests that "failed", but felt this wasn't enough. It wanted all these parts of the test to be sentient too, so they could feel the punishment. This deity is awesome and we should thank it for the opportunity of being forced into this test.

[Bob Kelso]

Ah, yes, created sick and commanded to be well.

[Brian37]

It is far more amazing to me, and filling to know that I am ultimately related to grass, trees, cockroaches, spiders, apes, the water bear, penguins, scorpions, dolphins, Venus fly trap, ect ect ect.

It amazes me that all life stems from Adenine, Guanine, Thymine and Cytosine.

The idea that a factory boss gave rise to all this, does not impress me. It makes much more sense to me, and is amazing that all this came about without help both in it's constructive outcomes, and destructive outcomes.

[Amarok]

Atlas clearly has done no research on Atheist responses to these question .But worst still why is it an Atheists job to answer in the first place ?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Atlas clearly has done no research on Atheist responses to these question .But worst still why is it an Atheists job to answer in the first place ?

They have these scripts, where the atheist sets himself up for the next "impossible to answer" gotcha from the theist. Strangely, we rarely follow their scripts. I guess God doesn't know what works on the godless.

[The Grand Nudger]

Guys a clueless fuckup.