Intercessory prayer is pointless

[Minimalist]

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Yeah, intercessory prayer seems pointless, but only if you take the position that such prayer is intended to convince God to change something, or at least to change it on a timeline suggested by the pleas of the supplicants involved. 

But that isn't what intercessory prayer is for.  Its sole purpose is to make religionists feel good about themselves without actually having to do anything.  It almost always comes down to, 'Oh, those poor people in Honduras!  I prayed for them' instead of, 'Oh, those poor people in Honduras!  I donated $50 to Honduran Relief International.'  Or 'Let us pray for the homeless among us' but never 'Let us go around and knock on doors, getting signatures on a petition demanding grant money to fund job training and low cost housing for homeless people.'


'Hands that help are better than lips that pray.'  True enough, but prayer has the attraction of salving the conscience without getting you all sweaty.

Boru

[RobbyPants]

The whole God thing is completely idiotic. If you examine it closely, you can't miss it.

If I ask these types of questions, I tend to get answers that involve them not wanting to think about it anymore. They typically phrase it as "just having faith". It's a nicer way of saying "I know this doesn't make any sense, and I can't explain it, but I believe it anyway".

[SteveII]

This was an old thread I made at TTA, and was reminded of by another here. I figured I'd post this separately.

Christians frequently engage in intercessory prayer. When I went to church, it was a weekly thing, and people going through any amount of trouble talk about it all the time. This is all based on Christian's own ideas that God is effectively "able and willing" to fix a problem that he caused/allowed, and also that he has a will, and his will will "be done".

The sad thing is, regardless of if you're talking about a sickness, natural disaster, or some other "act of God" type of problem, the outcome is always the same. There are three ways and only three ways this can play out. For this discussion, we won't worry about why God caused or allowed the problem. That will be chalked up to [mysterious ways]. Starting from that point, one of three things will happen:

• God caused/allowed the problem for some reason, and he plans on fixing it. Perhaps this was to strengthen people, or whatever. The reason is moot. He caused/allowed it, and he's fixing it, anyway. Prayer does nothing in this case.
  
• God caused/allowed the problem for some reason, and he is not fixing it. Again, the reason doesn't matter. Maybe it's just that person's time. Regardless, prayer does nothing in this case.
  
• God caused/allowed the problem and will make it persist unless people pray to fix it. Then, and only then, does God fix the problem. So, the good news is prayer works in this case. The bad news is, the problem only exists in the first place so God can coax people into asking him to fix it. What the shit?
  

And that's it. There's no magical fourth option that both has prayer working and God not being a massive twat. I knew a guy like that in college. He'd cause problems just so he could fix him, and everyone hated that guy. We didn't sing his praises; we cut all ties with him.

Option #4: From the foundations of the world, God knew that person x would pray. Prayer has significant benefits to the person praying that goes beyond just the request. Depending on the butterfly effect of answering that prayer and his overall will, God has already decided if it will be answered.

[Abaddon_ire]

This was an old thread I made at TTA, and was reminded of by another here. I figured I'd post this separately.

Christians frequently engage in intercessory prayer. When I went to church, it was a weekly thing, and people going through any amount of trouble talk about it all the time. This is all based on Christian's own ideas that God is effectively "able and willing" to fix a problem that he caused/allowed, and also that he has a will, and his will will "be done".

The sad thing is, regardless of if you're talking about a sickness, natural disaster, or some other "act of God" type of problem, the outcome is always the same. There are three ways and only three ways this can play out. For this discussion, we won't worry about why God caused or allowed the problem. That will be chalked up to [mysterious ways]. Starting from that point, one of three things will happen:

• God caused/allowed the problem for some reason, and he plans on fixing it. Perhaps this was to strengthen people, or whatever. The reason is moot. He caused/allowed it, and he's fixing it, anyway. Prayer does nothing in this case.
  
• God caused/allowed the problem for some reason, and he is not fixing it. Again, the reason doesn't matter. Maybe it's just that person's time. Regardless, prayer does nothing in this case.
  
• God caused/allowed the problem and will make it persist unless people pray to fix it. Then, and only then, does God fix the problem. So, the good news is prayer works in this case. The bad news is, the problem only exists in the first place so God can coax people into asking him to fix it. What the shit?
  

And that's it. There's no magical fourth option that both has prayer working and God not being a massive twat. I knew a guy like that in college. He'd cause problems just so he could fix him, and everyone hated that guy. We didn't sing his praises; we cut all ties with him.

Option #4: From the foundations of the world, God knew that person x would pray. Prayer has significant benefits to the person praying that goes beyond just the request. Depending on the butterfly effect of answering that prayer and his overall will, God has already decided if it will be answered.

OPtion #4 removes all possibility of free will for anyone including your god.

[RobbyPants]

Option #4: From the foundations of the world, God knew that person x would pray. Prayer has significant benefits to the person praying that goes beyond just the request. Depending on the butterfly effect of answering that prayer and his overall will, God has already decided if it will be answered.

Abaddon_ire already pointed out the problems of this option and agency.

You're also running into the scenario of "God caused you to get cancer because he knew you'd ask him to help out, and the act of you asking has benefits for you."

I'd submit that's just as bad, or worse, than my old college roommate who'd create problems just so he could fix them. Again, we all hated that guy and cut all ties with him. I mean, no one here is arguing that YHWH, according to the apologetics, isn't a massive narcissist. You're really only further proving my OP.

[SteveII]

Option #4: From the foundations of the world, God knew that person x would pray. Prayer has significant benefits to the person praying that goes beyond just the request. Depending on the butterfly effect of answering that prayer and his overall will, God has already decided if it will be answered.

Abaddon_ire already pointed out the problems of this option and agency.

You're also running into the scenario of "God caused you to get cancer because he knew you'd ask him to help out, and the act of you asking has benefits for you."

I'd submit that's just as bad, or worse, than my old college roommate who'd create problems just so he could fix them. Again, we all hated that guy and cut all ties with him. I mean, no one here is arguing that YHWH, according to the apologetics, isn't a massive narcissist. You're really only further proving my OP.

Nope. I am a Molinist (God's middle knowledge lets him see what people will freely choose to do). Free will lives on. 

You are asserting that God caused the cancer. It might be that you simply chose to smoke or go to the beach. So, I don't accept that God caused any cancer. Actually that's not a belief that Christians generally hold (if at all)--so it is a straw man argument.

[Minimalist]

Option #4:

That is for fucking idiots.

[The Grand Nudger]

Nope. I am a Molinist (God's middle knowledge lets him see what people will freely choose to do). Free will lives on. 

You are asserting that God caused the cancer. It might be that you simply chose to smoke or go to the beach. So, I don't accept that God caused any cancer. Actually that's not a belief that Christians generally hold (if at all)--so it is a straw man argument.

Did god not design the beach, or smokes, or sun, or the human body...or cancer?  You don't like to accept gods responsibility for this world..but that doesn't mean that you don't believe in it.  

As to free will living on because you're a molinist..yeah...sure, compatibilist free will, lol..which makes a mockery of god as a just agent and free will as free.

"Middle knowledge" in no way argues against theological fatalism...it confirms it, necessarily.

[SaStrike]

Abaddon_ire already pointed out the problems of this option and agency.

You're also running into the scenario of "God caused you to get cancer because he knew you'd ask him to help out, and the act of you asking has benefits for you."

I'd submit that's just as bad, or worse, than my old college roommate who'd create problems just so he could fix them. Again, we all hated that guy and cut all ties with him. I mean, no one here is arguing that YHWH, according to the apologetics, isn't a massive narcissist. You're really only further proving my OP.

Nope. I am a Molinist (God's middle knowledge lets him see what people will freely choose to do). Free will lives on. 

You are asserting that God caused the cancer. It might be that you simply chose to smoke or go to the beach. So, I don't accept that God caused any cancer. Actually that's not a belief that Christians generally hold (if at all)--so it is a straw man argument.

What you say here is contradictory to your option 4.

How can a person choose to get cancer, when god already knew what would happen before creation?

Since god does the creation, and during creation knew what will happen (because he programmed the human to, or willed it to be that way or whatever theists come up with). How can it be any one else fault but god?