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RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
September 28, 2018 at 2:25 pm
At best, we're co-conspirators. At worst, we're just patsies.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
September 28, 2018 at 2:37 pm
(This post was last modified: September 28, 2018 at 2:39 pm by purplepurpose.)
Prayers is said to help, but lots of kids that didn't ruined their health just die from cancer. If God doesn't cure cancer trough prayer in so many kids, doesn't that mean that God doesn't intervene at all?
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RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
September 28, 2018 at 2:39 pm
(September 28, 2018 at 11:32 am)SteveII Wrote: You are asserting that God caused the cancer. It might be that you simply chose to smoke or go to the beach. So, I don't accept that God caused any cancer. Actually that's not a belief that Christians generally hold (if at all)--so it is a straw man argument.
While I did say "cause" in that post, I said "cause or allow" in the OP, because it doesn't really matter in the context of the discussion. The point is: if intercessory prayer could work, God has to have agency to fix the problem.
If he has that agency, your option #4 could be summed up as "God causes/allows problem because it benefits you to ask him to fix it". If he doesn't have agency, why call him God?
So, it wasn't a strawman so much as you attempting to dodge the point of the thread.
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RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
September 28, 2018 at 2:57 pm
(This post was last modified: September 28, 2018 at 2:58 pm by BrianSoddingBoru4.)
[url=https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/ambrose_bierce_145938][/url]
'Pray: To ask the laws of the universe to be annulled on behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.' - Ambrose Bierce
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
September 28, 2018 at 4:08 pm
(This post was last modified: September 28, 2018 at 4:32 pm by SteveII.)
(September 28, 2018 at 1:57 pm)SaStrike Wrote: (September 28, 2018 at 11:32 am)SteveII Wrote: Nope. I am a Molinist (God's middle knowledge lets him see what people will freely choose to do). Free will lives on.
You are asserting that God caused the cancer. It might be that you simply chose to smoke or go to the beach. So, I don't accept that God caused any cancer. Actually that's not a belief that Christians generally hold (if at all)--so it is a straw man argument.
What you say here is contradictory to your option 4.
How can a person choose to get cancer, when god already knew what would happen before creation?
Since god does the creation, and during creation knew what will happen (because he programmed the human to, or willed it to be that way or whatever theists come up with). How can it be any one else fault but god?
No one chooses to get cancer. Our choice can lead to it. Our environment can lead to it (other people's choices). Our bad genes passed on from our parents can lead to it (more other people's choices).
God's knowledge of what we will freely choose does not limit our ability to choose it.
(September 28, 2018 at 2:39 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: (September 28, 2018 at 11:32 am)SteveII Wrote: You are asserting that God caused the cancer. It might be that you simply chose to smoke or go to the beach. So, I don't accept that God caused any cancer. Actually that's not a belief that Christians generally hold (if at all)--so it is a straw man argument.
While I did say "cause" in that post, I said "cause or allow" in the OP, because it doesn't really matter in the context of the discussion. The point is: if intercessory prayer could work, God has to have agency to fix the problem.
If he has that agency, your option #4 could be summed up as "God causes/allows problem because it benefits you to ask him to fix it". If he doesn't have agency, why call him God?
Your phrase "God causes/allows problem because it benefits you to ask him to fix it" is way to simplistic. Also, that line of thinking would not work on most of the world who do not ask him anything when they have problems. It would seem that it is more likely that there are problems in the world because of nature, evil choices of people, willful disregard of consequences, unintended consequences of choices, and bad luck. You can trace every problem all the way back to the beginning of the universe if you had enough information.
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RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
September 28, 2018 at 5:52 pm
I'll just leave this here:
"Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer."
[...]
" CONCLUSIONS:
Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications."
Am Heart Journal; April 2006; 151(4):934-42.
--
Dr H
"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
September 28, 2018 at 8:26 pm
(September 28, 2018 at 11:32 am)SteveII Wrote: (September 28, 2018 at 10:44 am)RobbyPants Wrote: Abaddon_ire already pointed out the problems of this option and agency.
You're also running into the scenario of "God caused you to get cancer because he knew you'd ask him to help out, and the act of you asking has benefits for you."
I'd submit that's just as bad, or worse, than my old college roommate who'd create problems just so he could fix them. Again, we all hated that guy and cut all ties with him. I mean, no one here is arguing that YHWH, according to the apologetics, isn't a massive narcissist. You're really only further proving my OP.
Nope. I am a Molinist (God's middle knowledge lets him see what people will freely choose to do). Free will lives on.
You are asserting that God caused the cancer. It might be that you simply chose to smoke or go to the beach. So, I don't accept that God caused any cancer. Actually that's not a belief that Christians generally hold (if at all)--so it is a straw man argument. But your god knew that you would, you had no choice in the matter.
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RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
September 28, 2018 at 8:38 pm
(September 28, 2018 at 8:26 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: (September 28, 2018 at 11:32 am)SteveII Wrote: Nope. I am a Molinist (God's middle knowledge lets him see what people will freely choose to do). Free will lives on.
You are asserting that God caused the cancer. It might be that you simply chose to smoke or go to the beach. So, I don't accept that God caused any cancer. Actually that's not a belief that Christians generally hold (if at all)--so it is a straw man argument. But your god knew that you would, you had no choice in the matter.
That does not make sense. I know my wife will choose chocolate ice cream over butter pecan every time. Does that mean she is not exercising free will? God derives his knowledge of what we will do given every actual and counterfactual circumstance because of his perfect predictive knowledge.
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RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
September 28, 2018 at 8:40 pm
(This post was last modified: September 28, 2018 at 8:43 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(September 28, 2018 at 8:38 pm)SteveII Wrote: (September 28, 2018 at 8:26 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: But your god knew that you would, you had no choice in the matter.
That does not make sense. I know my wife will choose chocolate ice cream over butter pecan every time. Does that mean she is not exercising free will? That's probably a great example of your wife not exercising her free will, yeah. She has a compulsion.
Quote:God derives his knowledge of what we will do given every actual and counterfactual circumstance because of his perfect predictive knowledge.
Perfect predictive knowledge carries an implicit claim to fatalism. Christian People™ who want to maintain a libertarian free will, rather than your compatibilist free will..have other options.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Intercessory prayer is pointless
September 28, 2018 at 8:57 pm
(September 28, 2018 at 4:08 pm)SteveII Wrote: No one chooses to get cancer. Can we choose to not get cancer? No? Your god has already determined it. there is no choice involved. In your borked universe.
(September 28, 2018 at 4:08 pm)SteveII Wrote: Our choice can lead to it. According to you, we have no choice, your gawd has ordained it. Right down to your slavish posts here.
(September 28, 2018 at 4:08 pm)SteveII Wrote: Our environment can lead to it (other people's choices). Our bad genes passed on from our parents can lead to it (more other people's choices). Nope. My sister had cancer, the treatment of same was ghastly. According to you your god did that and there is nothing that anyone could do about ti because it was predetermined anyway
(September 28, 2018 at 4:08 pm)SteveII Wrote: God's knowledge of what we will freely choose does not limit our ability to choose it. Can you freely choose to be an atheist?
(September 28, 2018 at 4:08 pm)SteveII Wrote: (September 28, 2018 at 2:39 pm)RobbyPants Wrote: <snip for brevity> Your god seems to be a slave to your desires. Why?
Why is it that your gawd conforms to whatever are your prejudicises? Why is it that you feel that you can constrain god to do your bidding?
Surely, your god insists that killing is holy and moral. And so do you so insist.That makes you the same as your proposed thuggod.
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