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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 10, 2018 at 7:54 pm
(This post was last modified: October 10, 2018 at 7:57 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 10, 2018 at 7:24 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (October 10, 2018 at 7:18 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: But if God if God created the universe, then he also created my choices, actions and consequences. There can be no free will in the framework of a God as described in the Bible.
Boru
What I see in the Bible is that God is soverign, and that man is responsible for the actions and choices he makes. I think you and I have free will; we make rational and moral choices. This is taught throughout the Bible. It seems to me, the materialist position where you don’t have these.
b-mine.
LOL, no it's not..precisely the opposite. I get that this is what -you- believe, and that's legit bud...but it's not what magic book says.
In any case, ofc we make choices. So do conveyor belts. Free will..remember, free will..fuck, it's your canard. Hard determinism says no, and so does magic book.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 10, 2018 at 8:34 pm
(October 10, 2018 at 7:24 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (October 10, 2018 at 7:18 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: But if God if God created the universe, then he also created my choices, actions and consequences. There can be no free will in the framework of a God as described in the Bible.
Boru
What I see in the Bible is that God is soverign, and that man is responsible for the actions and choices he makes. I think you and I have free will; we make rational and moral choices. This is taught throughout the Bible. It seems to me, the materialist position where you don’t have these.
Then you don't believe two things that the Bible consistently hammers home: that God created the universe, and that God knows everything that is going to happen.
If God created the universe, he created everything in it. Choices, but any coherent definition, are 'things'. If I choose to murder someone, God created that choice, so there is no way that I can be held responsible. If I choose not to repent this murder, that's God's responsibility, not mine.
It gets worse with the second point. If God knows I am going to commit a murder and show no repentance or remorse for that sin, then God created me with the foreknowledge that I am going to be eternally damned. That's simply monstrous.
The only way for freewill and God to exist is if God both didn't create everything and doesn't know everything. Such a being clearly doesn't match up with what is in the Bible.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 10, 2018 at 9:00 pm
(October 10, 2018 at 8:34 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (October 10, 2018 at 7:24 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: What I see in the Bible is that God is soverign, and that man is responsible for the actions and choices he makes. I think you and I have free will; we make rational and moral choices. This is taught throughout the Bible. It seems to me, the materialist position where you don’t have these.
Then you don't believe two things that the Bible consistently hammers home: that God created the universe, and that God knows everything that is going to happen.
If God created the universe, he created everything in it. Choices, but any coherent definition, are 'things'. If I choose to murder someone, God created that choice, so there is no way that I can be held responsible. If I choose not to repent this murder, that's God's responsibility, not mine.
It gets worse with the second point. If God knows I am going to commit a murder and show no repentance or remorse for that sin, then God created me with the foreknowledge that I am going to be eternally damned. That's simply monstrous.
The only way for freewill and God to exist is if God both didn't create everything and doesn't know everything. Such a being clearly doesn't match up with what is in the Bible.
Boru You are trying to reason to both these conclusions. The Bible doesn’t say tat we don’t have free will; but that we are responsible for our choices. I think that this is bad reasoning.
I knew you where going to say this. Well at least fairly certain. Does that mean that you didn’t have a choice. How does the knowledge of another effect if you choose. And if you did have a choice to not say this, then how you where created, has no consequence on you having a choice.
However, consciousness is a difficulty if we are just matter in motion, and our actions are just the inevitable result of electro-chemical reactions. You can’t make logical choices, you can’t make moral choices, or really any choice at all. You can’t even determine the truth of your claims; it’s out of your control. There’s isnt really a you a true all, it’s Justin an illusion, created by physical reactions.
If you couldn’t do other than what God knows, then perhaps it goes against libertarian free will. But I’m more of a compatabilist, and only think that you made the choice is necessary.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 10, 2018 at 9:05 pm
(October 10, 2018 at 6:50 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Or it’s Gods will that you be a moral agent with free will, and you are culpable for your choices. You also have the difference between God’s will, in what he desires and in what he permits.
Rhonda sums things up nicely in her OP; I'll also paraphrase Epicurus:
If god is able to stop someone from punching me in face, but not willing - then he is malevolent.
That's surely not a being I wish to believe in or worship.
-Teresa
.
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 10, 2018 at 9:14 pm
(October 10, 2018 at 9:05 pm)Tres Leches Wrote: (October 10, 2018 at 6:50 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Or it’s Gods will that you be a moral agent with free will, and you are culpable for your choices. You also have the difference between God’s will, in what he desires and in what he permits.
Rhonda sums things up nicely in her OP; I'll also paraphrase Epicurus:
If god is able to stop someone from punching me in face, but not willing - then he is malevolent.
That's surely not a being I wish to believe in or worship.
-Teresa
That’s another topic, that has been discussed quite a bit. Also the Bible describes the process that will save us from such things, and you reject it. I would think that you would do whatever you could to prevent the further separation from God, and suffering because of sin; if this was really a concern for you.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 10, 2018 at 9:20 pm
(This post was last modified: October 10, 2018 at 9:20 pm by Nay_Sayer.)
Or it’s FSM's will that you be a moral agent with free will, and you are culpable for your choices. You also have the difference between FSM's will, in what he desires and in what he permits.
RAmen
"For the only way to eternal glory is a life lived in service of our Lord, FSM; Verily it is FSM who is the perfect being the name higher than all names, king of all kings and will bestow upon us all, one day, The great reclaiming" -The Prophet Boiardi-
Conservative trigger warning.
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 10, 2018 at 9:36 pm
Quote: I think you should get to know more Christians.
Why? The only ones worth knowing are the ones who only pay it lip service. The rest of you jerks are just.... jerks.
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 10, 2018 at 9:40 pm
(October 10, 2018 at 9:36 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Quote: I think you should get to know more Christians.
Why? The only ones worth knowing are the ones who only pay it lip service. The rest of you jerks are just.... jerks.
Perhaps you would want to be an angry atheist; that at least accurately represents others.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 10, 2018 at 10:25 pm
(This post was last modified: October 10, 2018 at 10:26 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 10, 2018 at 9:00 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: You are trying to reason to both these conclusions. The Bible doesn’t say tat we don’t have free will
Yes, magic book does say that, repeatedly.
........................?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 11, 2018 at 12:00 am
But what about Calvinists?
I'm asking. Cuz I don't know. Apparently they don't believe in free will.
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