How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?

[The Grand Nudger]

They've got the scriptural position down, but it makes god out to be a complete ass.  Naturally, Buddy Jesus types cant have that, so fuck whatever magic books says.

[EgoDeath]

We can't. Fate and free will cannot coexist.

[RoadRunner79]

But what about Calvinists?

I'm asking. Cuz I don't know. Apparently they don't believe in free will.

Some may not, but you may be confusing the idea of total depravity, which says that mans nature is sinful, and will not choose God.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Then you don't believe two things that the Bible consistently hammers home:  that God created the universe, and that God knows everything that is going to happen.

If God created the universe, he created everything in it.  Choices, but any coherent definition, are 'things'.  If I choose to murder someone, God created that choice, so there is no way that I can be held responsible.  If I choose not to repent this murder, that's God's responsibility, not mine.

It gets worse with the second point.  If God knows I am going to commit a murder and show no repentance or remorse for that sin, then God created me with the foreknowledge that I am going to be eternally damned. That's simply monstrous.

The only way for freewill and God to exist is if God both didn't create everything and doesn't know everything. Such a being clearly doesn't match up with what is in the Bible.

Boru

You are trying to reason to both these conclusions.  The Bible doesn’t say tat we don’t have free will; but that we are responsible for our choices. I think that this is bad reasoning. 

I knew you where going to say this. Well at least fairly certain.   Does that mean that you didn’t have a choice. How does the knowledge of another effect if you choose. And if you did have a choice to not say this, then how you where created, has no consequence on you having a choice. 

However, consciousness is a difficulty if we are just matter in motion, and our actions are just the inevitable result of electro-chemical reactions. You can’t make logical choices, you can’t make moral choices, or really any choice at all. You can’t  even determine the truth of your claims; it’s out of your control. There’s isnt really a you a true all, it’s Justin an illusion, created by physical reactions. 

If you couldn’t do other than what God knows, then perhaps it goes against libertarian free will. But I’m more of a compatabilist, and only think that you made the choice is necessary.

Suppose for a moment that there was a passage in the Bible in which God deliberately removes free will from people.  Would that change your mind?

Boru

[RoadRunner79]

You are trying to reason to both these conclusions.  The Bible doesn’t say tat we don’t have free will; but that we are responsible for our choices. I think that this is bad reasoning. 

I knew you where going to say this. Well at least fairly certain.   Does that mean that you didn’t have a choice. How does the knowledge of another effect if you choose. And if you did have a choice to not say this, then how you where created, has no consequence on you having a choice. 

However, consciousness is a difficulty if we are just matter in motion, and our actions are just the inevitable result of electro-chemical reactions. You can’t make logical choices, you can’t make moral choices, or really any choice at all. You can’t  even determine the truth of your claims; it’s out of your control. There’s isnt really a you a true all, it’s Justin an illusion, created by physical reactions. 

If you couldn’t do other than what God knows, then perhaps it goes against libertarian free will. But I’m more of a compatabilist, and only think that you made the choice is necessary.

Suppose for a moment that there was a passage in the Bible in which God deliberately removes free will from people.  Would that change your mind?

Boru

Your premise here requires that we have free will to begin with. I don’t see how that is going to help you.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Suppose for a moment that there was a passage in the Bible in which God deliberately removes free will from people.  Would that change your mind?

Boru

Your premise here requires that we have free will to begin with. I don’t see how that is going to help you.

Fair point, I worded it badly.  How about:  Suppose for a moment that there was a passage in the Bible in which God deliberately denies free will to people.  Would that change your mind?

Boru

[tahaadi]

There is no such thing as free will.
There are actions and then consequences.

[RoadRunner79]

Your premise here requires that we have free will to begin with. I don’t see how that is going to help you.

Fair point, I worded it badly.  How about:  Suppose for a moment that there was a passage in the Bible in which God deliberately denies free will to people.  Would that change your mind?

Boru

You are still are starting with there being free will, and then the assertion that it is being denied or overwritten.   Again, that would go against what you are saying, which is that we have no free will at all.  I don't think that the it is necessary (although possible) that the passages you are thinking of are overriding a persons free will (or that God forced them to do something they didn't want to).   But this doesn't help you get to your conclusion.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Fair point, I worded it badly.  How about:  Suppose for a moment that there was a passage in the Bible in which God deliberately denies free will to people.  Would that change your mind?

Boru

You are still are starting with there being free will, and then the assertion that it is being denied or overwritten.   Again, that would go against what you are saying, which is that we have no free will at all.  I don't think that the it is necessary (although possible) that the passages you are thinking of are overriding a persons free will (or that God forced them to do something they didn't want to).   But this doesn't help you get to your conclusion.

This is actually a slightly different point.  I still maintain that freewill cannot exist in light of the biblical God.  I'm speaking more to the point of what you claim the Bible has to say about freewill. You have claimed that the Bible insists that human beings are responsible for the choices they make.  If there were biblical support that humans are not so responsible, would you accept it?

Boru

[RoadRunner79]

You are still are starting with there being free will, and then the assertion that it is being denied or overwritten.   Again, that would go against what you are saying, which is that we have no free will at all.  I don't think that the it is necessary (although possible) that the passages you are thinking of are overriding a persons free will (or that God forced them to do something they didn't want to).   But this doesn't help you get to your conclusion.

This is actually a slightly different point.  I still maintain that freewill cannot exist in light of the biblical God.  I'm speaking more to the point of what you claim the Bible has to say about freewill. You have claimed that the Bible insists that human beings are responsible for the choices they make.  If there were biblical support that humans are not so responsible, would you accept it?

Boru

Yes, we are responsible for the choices that we make.   I am guessing, that you are going to reference God hardening the heart of Pharaoh or something like that.   This doesn't mean that it wasn't his choice, was overridden.  Also, this would be referencing an instance, where the contrary is implied to be the norm.