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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 11, 2018 at 12:05 am
They've got the scriptural position down, but it makes god out to be a complete ass. Naturally, Buddy Jesus types cant have that, so fuck whatever magic books says.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 11, 2018 at 12:07 am
We can't. Fate and free will cannot coexist.
If you're frightened of dying, and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth.
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 11, 2018 at 12:45 am
(October 11, 2018 at 12:00 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: But what about Calvinists?
I'm asking. Cuz I don't know. Apparently they don't believe in free will.
Some may not, but you may be confusing the idea of total depravity, which says that mans nature is sinful, and will not choose God.
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 11, 2018 at 5:25 am
(October 10, 2018 at 9:00 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (October 10, 2018 at 8:34 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Then you don't believe two things that the Bible consistently hammers home: that God created the universe, and that God knows everything that is going to happen.
If God created the universe, he created everything in it. Choices, but any coherent definition, are 'things'. If I choose to murder someone, God created that choice, so there is no way that I can be held responsible. If I choose not to repent this murder, that's God's responsibility, not mine.
It gets worse with the second point. If God knows I am going to commit a murder and show no repentance or remorse for that sin, then God created me with the foreknowledge that I am going to be eternally damned. That's simply monstrous.
The only way for freewill and God to exist is if God both didn't create everything and doesn't know everything. Such a being clearly doesn't match up with what is in the Bible.
Boru You are trying to reason to both these conclusions. The Bible doesn’t say tat we don’t have free will; but that we are responsible for our choices. I think that this is bad reasoning.
I knew you where going to say this. Well at least fairly certain. Does that mean that you didn’t have a choice. How does the knowledge of another effect if you choose. And if you did have a choice to not say this, then how you where created, has no consequence on you having a choice.
However, consciousness is a difficulty if we are just matter in motion, and our actions are just the inevitable result of electro-chemical reactions. You can’t make logical choices, you can’t make moral choices, or really any choice at all. You can’t even determine the truth of your claims; it’s out of your control. There’s isnt really a you a true all, it’s Justin an illusion, created by physical reactions.
If you couldn’t do other than what God knows, then perhaps it goes against libertarian free will. But I’m more of a compatabilist, and only think that you made the choice is necessary.
Suppose for a moment that there was a passage in the Bible in which God deliberately removes free will from people. Would that change your mind?
Boru
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 11, 2018 at 7:39 am
(October 11, 2018 at 5:25 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (October 10, 2018 at 9:00 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: You are trying to reason to both these conclusions. The Bible doesn’t say tat we don’t have free will; but that we are responsible for our choices. I think that this is bad reasoning.
I knew you where going to say this. Well at least fairly certain. Does that mean that you didn’t have a choice. How does the knowledge of another effect if you choose. And if you did have a choice to not say this, then how you where created, has no consequence on you having a choice.
However, consciousness is a difficulty if we are just matter in motion, and our actions are just the inevitable result of electro-chemical reactions. You can’t make logical choices, you can’t make moral choices, or really any choice at all. You can’t even determine the truth of your claims; it’s out of your control. There’s isnt really a you a true all, it’s Justin an illusion, created by physical reactions.
If you couldn’t do other than what God knows, then perhaps it goes against libertarian free will. But I’m more of a compatabilist, and only think that you made the choice is necessary.
Suppose for a moment that there was a passage in the Bible in which God deliberately removes free will from people. Would that change your mind?
Boru
Your premise here requires that we have free will to begin with. I don’t see how that is going to help you.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 11, 2018 at 8:35 am
(October 11, 2018 at 7:39 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (October 11, 2018 at 5:25 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Suppose for a moment that there was a passage in the Bible in which God deliberately removes free will from people. Would that change your mind?
Boru
Your premise here requires that we have free will to begin with. I don’t see how that is going to help you.
Fair point, I worded it badly. How about: Suppose for a moment that there was a passage in the Bible in which God deliberately denies free will to people. Would that change your mind?
Boru
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 11, 2018 at 8:41 am
There is no such thing as free will.
There are actions and then consequences.
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 11, 2018 at 8:45 am
(October 11, 2018 at 8:35 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (October 11, 2018 at 7:39 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Your premise here requires that we have free will to begin with. I don’t see how that is going to help you.
Fair point, I worded it badly. How about: Suppose for a moment that there was a passage in the Bible in which God deliberately denies free will to people. Would that change your mind?
Boru
You are still are starting with there being free will, and then the assertion that it is being denied or overwritten. Again, that would go against what you are saying, which is that we have no free will at all. I don't think that the it is necessary (although possible) that the passages you are thinking of are overriding a persons free will (or that God forced them to do something they didn't want to). But this doesn't help you get to your conclusion.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 11, 2018 at 9:35 am
(October 11, 2018 at 8:45 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: (October 11, 2018 at 8:35 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Fair point, I worded it badly. How about: Suppose for a moment that there was a passage in the Bible in which God deliberately denies free will to people. Would that change your mind?
Boru
You are still are starting with there being free will, and then the assertion that it is being denied or overwritten. Again, that would go against what you are saying, which is that we have no free will at all. I don't think that the it is necessary (although possible) that the passages you are thinking of are overriding a persons free will (or that God forced them to do something they didn't want to). But this doesn't help you get to your conclusion.
This is actually a slightly different point. I still maintain that freewill cannot exist in light of the biblical God. I'm speaking more to the point of what you claim the Bible has to say about freewill. You have claimed that the Bible insists that human beings are responsible for the choices they make. If there were biblical support that humans are not so responsible, would you accept it?
Boru
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RE: How Can We Have Moral Direction If God Controls Everything?
October 11, 2018 at 9:48 am
(October 11, 2018 at 9:35 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (October 11, 2018 at 8:45 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: You are still are starting with there being free will, and then the assertion that it is being denied or overwritten. Again, that would go against what you are saying, which is that we have no free will at all. I don't think that the it is necessary (although possible) that the passages you are thinking of are overriding a persons free will (or that God forced them to do something they didn't want to). But this doesn't help you get to your conclusion.
This is actually a slightly different point. I still maintain that freewill cannot exist in light of the biblical God. I'm speaking more to the point of what you claim the Bible has to say about freewill. You have claimed that the Bible insists that human beings are responsible for the choices they make. If there were biblical support that humans are not so responsible, would you accept it?
Boru
Yes, we are responsible for the choices that we make. I am guessing, that you are going to reference God hardening the heart of Pharaoh or something like that. This doesn't mean that it wasn't his choice, was overridden. Also, this would be referencing an instance, where the contrary is implied to be the norm.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
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