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RE: Jesus suffering vs eternal suffering of temporary sinners
November 17, 2018 at 10:42 am
(November 17, 2018 at 1:09 am)MysticKnight Wrote: (November 16, 2018 at 11:17 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Obviously you're only supposed to think about your most hated enemies being tossed into the fire below. Not the sweet boy down the street that mows your grass, but just doesn't believe in god as fervently as you do. Not likable people that didn't really do anything wrong, except not believe in your interpretation of your god.
The thing about the worst people like dictators and oppressors, they depend on two: "supporters" (often likeable people) and "watchers" (sit by and let the evil happen).
According to hadiths attributed to Ahlulbayt (as) and proven by Quran, and they even quote Jesus in this respect, the watchers are partners with the oppressors.
This is a rational stance. It's easy to be good and neglectful. But it's also a paradox to be good and watch the oppressors have their way.
To be good is to be with the oppressed and against the oppressors. And to do that, one most be with the truthful leaders from God who show the truth and way to justice, though at times, afflictions and turmoil hits the ship of salvation pretty hard, we have to be patient.
Most evil people usually think their actions are good. Watchers who watch oppressors and do nothing, they will be awakened to a rude awakening.
I can agree with this. Unfortunately there are people who will say the Abrahamic god isn't as bad or worse than any dictator on Earth. That's where we start having problems between religious and nonreligious. The supporters will oppress anyone who tries to stand up to them, making watchers out of everyone who isn't brave enough to stand up, but who aren't as radical as the diehard supporters.
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RE: Jesus suffering vs eternal suffering of temporary sinners
November 17, 2018 at 1:35 pm
Actually, one of the points of Christianity is to think about "good" people going to Hell. Hence the reason for proselytizing.
Getting back to the metaphor:
People aren't intended to swim in the lava. Maybe it's not a split slide but a slide that leads to a pool that you can choose to jump off into lava.
In this park you only have 2 eternal options, lava or water nothing else exists except the slide. I believe I'm digressing from the point though.
Does any amount temporary suffering equivocate to everlasting punishment? I would say no. Does any amount of suffering or sacrifice equivocate to everlasting punishment? I would say yes.
Perhaps I should start a separate thread for my side points:
a-Hell was not intended for people, but was created by God.
b-Should any creator (omniscient or not) be morally culpable for it's creations when granted the gift of volition or choice.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
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RE: Jesus suffering vs eternal suffering of temporary sinners
November 17, 2018 at 1:42 pm
(This post was last modified: November 17, 2018 at 1:44 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
to b - it's not the volition of the creation which a god is being held morally accountable for, in this instance. It is their own intentional actions...namely, your a, the creation of the lava cesspit. Absent that decision, entirely gods own, no amount of volition on the part of the creation would lead to being dumped into a lava cesspit. Having chosen to undertake such a thing, it stands to reason that there is a greater requirement than standing idly by saying "no, stop" while others plummit into the pit you dug.
This is entirely uncontroversial until someones god is being held accountable for what they've allegedly done, one term for it... is criminal negligence.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Jesus suffering vs eternal suffering of temporary sinners
November 17, 2018 at 3:57 pm
(November 17, 2018 at 1:35 pm)tackattack Wrote: Actually, one of the points of Christianity is to think about "good" people going to Hell. Hence the reason for proselytizing.
Getting back to the metaphor:
People aren't intended to swim in the lava. Maybe it's not a split slide but a slide that leads to a pool that you can choose to jump off into lava.
In this park you only have 2 eternal options, lava or water nothing else exists except the slide. I believe I'm digressing from the point though.
Does any amount temporary suffering equivocate to everlasting punishment? I would say no. Does any amount of suffering or sacrifice equivocate to everlasting punishment? I would say yes.
Perhaps I should start a separate thread for my side points:
a-Hell was not intended for people, but was created by God.
b-Should any creator (omniscient or not) be morally culpable for it's creations when granted the gift of volition or choice.
What does it matter if it was intended for people or not? Doing it to angels you kicked out of heaven is just as evil, isn't it? You're still creating a lake of fire for people who don't worship you to burn forever, without giving any opportunity between object servitude or eternal pain.
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RE: Jesus suffering vs eternal suffering of temporary sinners
November 17, 2018 at 4:24 pm
(This post was last modified: November 17, 2018 at 4:25 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
If I dug a spike pit in my yard to kill a wild boar, and someones kid fell into it...loudly proclaiming that the pit was intended for pigs isn't going to get me off the hook. Nor will my standing in the yard going "hey, kid..stop".
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Jesus suffering vs eternal suffering of temporary sinners
November 17, 2018 at 5:00 pm
Quote:a-Hell was not intended for people, but was created by God.
Well then fuck him.
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RE: Jesus suffering vs eternal suffering of temporary sinners
November 17, 2018 at 5:03 pm
The religion is less shitty as a fairy tale than it would be if any of it were remotely true. That much, at least, is impressive.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Jesus suffering vs eternal suffering of temporary sinners
November 17, 2018 at 6:13 pm
(November 16, 2018 at 4:38 pm)The Valkyrie Wrote: Jesus gave up his long weekend for your sins.
Not all of it !!
'Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid'
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RE: Jesus suffering vs eternal suffering of temporary sinners
November 17, 2018 at 10:00 pm
I believe what the atheist argument for this one point is that it is immoral for an all loving creator to create hell. Is that correct?
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
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RE: Jesus suffering vs eternal suffering of temporary sinners
November 18, 2018 at 9:41 am
(November 17, 2018 at 1:35 pm)tackattack Wrote: a-Hell was not intended for people, but was created by God.
Did he not foresee the consequences of creating such a place given the nature of the creatures he made?
How is creating a method of eternal torment for any reason ever justifiable?
Quote:b-Should any creator (omniscient or not) be morally culpable for it's creations when granted the gift of volition or choice.
Absolutely. He not only knew the proclivities of his creation, he defined the nature and limits of that creation. Even if he didn't, if something is created that gets out of control the creator is responsible.
Evey time I hear a theist propose this argument I realize they envision an incredibly evil and/or wholly incompetent god.
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