Would They Die for a Lie?

[Drich]

those names where links to the wiki pages on ths guys on their pages are links to their works

but I found a compiled list here from the burning of rome wiki page this can be found at the bottom under references.:
Notes and references[edit]

1. ^ "Great Fire of Rome". National Geographic Society. 18 June 2014.
   
2. ^ Dando-Collins, Stephen (September 2010). The Great Fire of Rome. Da Capo Press. ISBN 978-0-306-81890-5.
   
3. ^ Cassius Dio,
   
4. ^ Suetonius. "Life of Nero". Lives of Twelve Caesars.
   
5. ^ Tacitus, Annal XV.38–44
   
6. ^ Jump up to:a  Tacitus, Annals XV.38–9
   
7. ^ Tacitus, Annals XV.44
   

Bibliography[edit]

• Cassius Dio, Roman History, Books 62 ( 229)
  
  
• Suetonius, The Lives of Twelve Caesars, the Life of Nero, 38 ( 121)
  
  
• Tacitus, Annals, XV ( 117)
  

Well, thank you for the additional information, Drich.  Unfortunately the only thing which leads to something specific is the National Geographic link, which provides little useful information.  I think you have misunderstood me.  I am looking for links to actual documents from the authors you cite, and preferably relevant quotes from those documents, specifically regarding persecution of Christians in the first century, including Nero, if relevant.  I'll have to reread the Pliny letter, but you and Jehanne appear to be talking past one another.  As far as I can see, the Pliny letter documents a limited pogrom against Christians, and doesn't document how widespread the actual oppression was or how many were killed or whatever as a result.  I understand that you think that the exception proves the rule here, in that this specific advice implies a greater widespread norm of persecution of Christians, but I'm not sure that holds, specifically in the absence of documentation of such.  It is the question of whether there was widespread persecution of Christians throughout the first century, and on into the following centuries, or whether there weren't pockets of persecution such as the Pliny letter alludes to.  Both claims can be correct.  Pliny can document specific persecutions, but not secure the conclusion of widespread persecution.  Again, I'll have to reread the letter, but if you could provide additional quotes and documents citing persecution of Christians in the early centuries, that would go a long way toward establishing your claim.  It's worthy of note that the only alleged example of persecution in the bible is that of Saint Stephen, and that wasn't for refusal to deny his beliefs.  At the very least, given that bible documents cover a substantial portion of the first century, it's odd that more examples of persecution aren't present.  (Jesus, himself, is arguably another example, but I'm not sure that helps consolidate the case.)

(Note:  The Cassius Dio and Seutonius references are dead links, and the Tacitus link is just a general link to his Roman Histories.)

I don't know what to tell you the links work for me. yes the links to tactius is a link to his completed works all you need do is look up Annal 15: entry 38-44

every single link works this way. you can simply type in or cut and paste the whole reference and pasted it into google and it will direct you to an active source for example tactius annals 15:41:
But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah/Tacitus/TacitusAnnals15.html

and another source for Gae bologna: this is another secular Roman source that not only identifies Christ but his torture and crucifixion at the hands of pontius pilate.

---

show me an active one that isn't. show me one where the believer doesn't get anything for service and worship

Here's about 26 of them. 
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/texas-church-shooting


Actually the lie, was that they died. Persecution was invented. Dr. Moss is a Christian.
https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Persecution-...0062104551

Dying for a lie, is nothing. Ask the 9/11 bombers.

they did not die for a lie. they died to destabilize america financially and to bring us into a war that ultimately bankrupted russia in the 1980s. . they succeeded to a degree, in that we have been in an almost 15 year depression thanks to trump we have been given at least a 2 year break from.. we have been at war longer than we ever have with a single enmey. Which again trump seems to be taking us away from.

I don't know what you mean by 26 dead.. or why a mass murder of christians is funny to you.

as far as your little link to anti christian propaganda. it's been brought up several times now and shot down with quotations from 1 century eye witness accounts from letters from the Emperor of Rome to a regional governor with orders to execute all known/verified christians to roman historians recording the burning of rome and emperor nero blaming the christians and the horrible ways they were killed. Again all first and second century source material from secular historians or first person accounts trumps any bull shite commentary people with an obvious bias and fake history have to say.

[Bucky Ball]

WTF are you even talking about ? 

I don't know what you mean by 26 dead.. or why a mass murder of christians is funny to you.

Do try to follow along, Drippy. No one said it was funny. 
YOU said "show me an active one that isn't. show me one where the believer doesn't get anything for service and worship"
You see dear, they were at worship. And what they got was being murdered, and your fool deity did nothing to help them. THAT's what they got for their worship. 
Even someone as stupid as you should be able to get that. 

as far as your little link to anti christian propaganda. it's been brought up several times now and shot down with quotations from 1 century eye witness accounts from letters from the Emperor of Rome to a regional governor with orders to execute all known/verified christians to roman historians recording the burning of rome and emperor nero blaming the christians and the horrible ways they were killed. Again all first and second century source material from secular historians or first person accounts trumps any bull shite commentary people with an obvious bias and fake history have to say.

Too bad for you, your links have been proven to be bogus. Dr. Candida Moss IS A CHRiTSIAN scholar of the NT. When YOU get a position at Notre Dame teaching, as she had, you can let us know ... meanwhile you are dismissed for the angry theist asshole you are. 

As we saw with the 9/11 bombers ... yes, religious nuts die for a lie, and have for a millennia. 

[Fake Messiah]

Proof that Jesus on the cross is fabricated story and not from eyewitness memory, even indirectly, is that it is simply a tacit rewrite of Psalm 22.

Jesus is attached to the cross, presumably with nails, based on Ps. 22:16, "They have pierced my hands and feet." The soldiers divide his garments (Mark 15:24), a detail derived directly from Ps. 22:18, "They divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots." The gloating mockers "wag their heads," an odd phrase, and one derived from Ps. 22:7: "All who see me mock at me, they make mouths at me, they wag their heads." The very taunts of the priests ("Let the Christ, the king of Israel, come down from the cross, that we may see and believe!" Mark 15:32) echo those that stung the Psalmist: "`He committed his cause to Yahve; let him deliver him, let him rescue him, for he delights in him!"' (Ps. 22:8).

There is Jesus' cry of dereliction, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" which is of course the opening line of Psalm 22, only Mark does not say so.

Indeed most if not all of Jesus life and sayings is simply plagiarized from characters of the OT, especially Moses. I mean hello slaughter of innocents children same as when Moses was born.

[Bucky Ball]

There are all kinds of other things that don't add up.

1. In the Pax Romana trouble-makers were just summarily executed by standing order. (He caused a ruckus in the temple - the temple was the economic life-blood of Jerusalem). The entire economy of the city was built on festival/tourism-temple sacrifice-priest fees and temple fees, and procuring the vast numbers of animals for the ritual sacrifices.
2. The standing order for execution did not involve a trial ... they were just executed.
3. Galilean peasants were never brought into the presence of Roman aristocrats ... they would never bother with the "low-life".
4. The Sanhedrin was never once in all of history called into session on Passover weekend ... it's like the temple curtain being torn ... if it had happened, the Jews who kept records of everything, far more mundae, would have written about it.
5. The gospels are contradictory on the day and time of the death.
6. In one gospel it says he was silent and said nothing at the trial. In another he gives a long speech.
7. IF the authorities had gone to all the trouble to try and execute him for the vast threat he (supposedly) was, and a couple days later there were reports of him (and 500 others) rising from the dead, they would have mounted a search to try to find him again ... in fact in Acts, Peter has to actually go through the "story" and tell the Jews what they (supposedly) did .

[Jehanne]

And, so, you accept the Acts of Peter as being an historical source?

is that all you got out my post? what about the lady [101] Margherita Guarducci who found his estuary/tomb with the inscription having been crucified by nero and giving the date? what about that?how did you miss that? With that as our anchor source then we can build with other material that would not typically stand on their own but in this case in this detail can be used to corroborate the narrative.

Why are you arguing 2000 years of known vetted history? don't you understand that the anti god propaganda is something new? I provided 5 1st century historians that point to nero in 64 AD wide spread persecution in Rome of Christians for the destruction or burning of Rome. You are ignoring 1st century sources for your own personal belief in modern anti god propagandists.

No one is denying that the Romans sometimes persecuted various groups, which included the early Christians, but only such was the exception and not the rule.

Glad to see that you no longer regard the Acts of Peter as being a reliable source of the death of Peter; doubtful, though, that he was crucified upside down. The Romans were not in the habit of granting last minute privileges to condemned prisoners facing execution.

[The Grand Nudger]

The Wemstroms: How words turn from innocent to negative

There are mounds and mounds of the faithful who take comfort in the idea that there is some critical mass of historical information regarding their faith..but, if they knew the contents of that mass, they'd be utterly disappointed.

I half agree with this. A lot of Christians know little about things like redaction criticism or who didn't write the pseudepigrapha etc. But go below the problems with the NT as a collection of sources, and apply historical methods, and I honestly do believe it strengthens the case for Xianity immeasurably.

This is what writers like N.T. Wright and J.P. Meier are doing- proper historical process applied to NT history. When you do this, you see things in a totally different light; you understand why it makes sense to believe.

And as I said, following proper historical method, with all the different sources and types of reference in the NT, tells us that those disciples paid a heavy price for their beliefs. Whatever else might have been the case, the reality is that those disciples believed in Jesus strongly enough to pay whatever price it took.

And other thoughts of that ilk.

Have a good Xmas, everybody!

No amount of a historical jesus would provide sense to believe in a mythical christ, Vicki. No one paid a heavy price for their beliefs, in early turn rome. They paid a heavy price for sedition and stupidity. Burn some incense to a fake god..and you live. Refuse, you die. The christians went the same route for centuries.

The historical truth of roman persecution of christians..is that it didnt begin in earnest until christians were in control of the levers of persecution. They were driving out competitor christianities. Pagan rome didn't give a fuck about a bunch of heathens superstitions. Their entire world was full of them. If you want an accurate picture of how a legit roman saw christianity, try Julian. It was his successors political need to end that dynasty and separate himself from the julio claudian culture and apparatus that created modern christer belief.