On the subject of Hell and Salvation

[Fake Messiah]

God could have foretold Moses death to him and what would happen

Yeah, makes sense if you're, like, retarded desperate fanatic that wants to believe in some stupid fairy tales.

but more than likely Joshua wrote those words.

Oh, so you contradict yourself, after all. But even more likely that those five books were written by many anonymous writers, over many years who gave many conflicting and made up stories.

As for Moses writing about who he was I see no problem with that.

Yeah a humble man writes about how humble he is - makes sense if you're retarded.

Your pitiful attempt at using two verses out of five books shows how little intelligence you actually have

LOL! As if there is any amount of evidence that would ever convince you.

I'm finished with your nonsense, post replies if you wish they will go unanswered. fair warning.

And how finished are you? As much as you're finished with reason? That is a cowardly way to cop-out of a drivel you just wrote and I understand why you're backing off because you just don't want to embarrass yourself anymore.

[possibletarian]

 It's apparent you are not concentrating on the bold part of my statement. It is simple truth either you desire what God has for you or you do not, there are no other options. I have never desired to be deceived nor will I ever, I have always been a facts hunter and one fact I have just discovered, you do not care to learn nor find truth, must be a very confusing life you live.

Actually i think truth is very important, one of the reasons i don't look in mythical books for it, and have yet to provide evidence of any god, never mind your own particular god.

All you seem able to do is make faith statements, based on a book written by men who tell you they were inspired by a god.

---

 There is no proof of a big bang and no one was around when the universe was created to say there was a big bang. I was watching a science show tonight about dark matter and dark energy and dark energy was defined as scientists ignorance,

Yes exactly, no one knows what 'Dark Matter' is, it's a placeholder name for something we see the clear effects of, but do not know what it is.

that's the best definition I've heard yet and that was by secular scientist. As I watched it became quite obvious that dark matter and dark energy are plug in scenario to make what scientist want to believe fit the belief,

What belief ?

there is no real science to dark matter or energy. They even admitted that the universe could have formed and developed without either, just so they can have a back-up plan.

Back up plan to what ? They are not saying it does not exist they are saying that it needn't have, there is no 'back up plan' where do you get this stupidity from ?

Your statement is contradictory from beginning to end and full of crap. God is always available to those who desire to know Him. God has said that he will not always listen to the insincere and He will not always strive with men. There's your truth from scripture.

Talking of cop outs...... why do you believe the bible, written by men who say they were inspired by a god, are you really that gullible ?

I'm glad you agree with me on the Bible, but for the table I have no idea what you are speaking of.

Good to see you avoiding questions in the best christian tradition.

Who said God inspire all the denominations,

Well no one least of all us but all denominations claim that. You claim to individually know which are true scriptures, what sets you apart from everyone else who claims to also know and have god inspired inspiration ?

I know you are thinking of some that most denominations consider cults and they are and therefore would never be inspired by God. Those who believe the Bible should be an open cannon want to believe things about god that are not true. No of those books some want to see as part of the Bible stand up to the scrutiny of the Bible we have now. They are contradictory to the Bible and thus can not be valid, God would never inspire contradictory books.

Of course a god wouldn't, but then a god would also know that the earth is older than 6 thousand years, and would have known there was no world wide flood, and dead people can't write about their own deaths, so we can safely say no god inspired your bible either.

 I do not have to prove Moses lived, the Bible tells us he did.

And? A book written by men, clearly Moses could not have written about his own death, never heard such stupidity.

Just as past writings in other culture say certain people lived and we have no proof outside of those particular writings. 
You can ignore anything I write, just as I do not take what you say seriously because I know it's not truth. What do you mean I come here, I've been here ten times longer than you have, I've watched many come and go as a matter of fact I'm one of the oldest members still posting, I've argued more positions than you will ever purpose.

And ? longevity does not speak to the truth or otherwise of what you are saying, just that you say a lot of it.

Demonstration,archaeologist that search in the Middle East use the Bible to help guide them in there searches.

Of course they do, just like they use other books of the time of all nations, but just because a book may contain useful historical data does not mean all its claims are true. For instance historical records of English kings have them performing superhuman feats, but we do not seriously believe that even though the places and timescale are correct.

Let mean inform you that my previous pastor was a nuclear engineer and his son has followed in that profession, his son was asked to come to the Fucushima  nuclear disaster and conferences in Washington D.C. so you see we are not suckers nor shallow we have many bright minds in our midst and most of them are teachers of one thing or another.

Which just go to show that otherwise clever people can believe nonsense, you could just as easily have been say a Muslim saying the same thing about your fellow Muslims.


 

God could have foretold Moses death to him and what would happen, but more than likely Joshua wrote those words. As for Moses writing about who he was I see no problem with that.

People don't usually refer to themselves in the third person.

You do the same here with Christians but there is a difference Moses tells the truth.

That's simply a faith statement

By the way Moses knew he wasn't going to the Promise Land and that he would die right where he stood looking upon the place he was forbidden to enter. Your pitiful attempt at using two verses out of five books shows how little intelligence you actually have, you should be ashamed of yourself. I'm finished with your nonsense, post replies if you wish they will go unanswered. fair warning.

The very fact you have to make pitiful excuses for the bible all the time shows this, in fact you always resort to this kind of ending, you have developed a belief (like so many other religionists) that simply what you believe is true and everyone else wrong, then you claim god inspiration for your rightness, as all religions do. then hide behind your wall of self belief.

There are multiple reasons why Moses did not write the first five books, try this site, but there are many good ones for you to google yourself.
https://allthatsinteresting.com/who-wrote-the-bible

To hang on to such flimsy beliefs these days is just silly.

[MilesAbbott81]

No we won't. We will all be dead and incapable of finding anything out. If I am wrong, I will find myself standing before an immoral thug who I would reject anyway. On moral grounds. You, by nature, are more moral the the celestial bully that you worship. This forces you to favour slavery, misogyny, elitism, human sacrifice, incest, rape and so forth. You know these things to be wrong, but you abandon your own morality in favour of an imaginary cosmological santa claus who will put presents under your dead moral tree if only you sufficiently grovel.

The Bible is not in favor of slavery, misogyny, elitism, human sacrifice, incest, rape or anything like this. This is your lack of knowledge and understanding speaking, not truth. These things are all wrong, and God never allows any of these things to occur unless He is making a point or meting out punishment/chastisement for evil.

Oh right, waving the white flag of victory is it?

If your ideas were remotely reasonable, then they would gain traction, or at least some robust discussion. But your ideas are so risible that at the first mere hint of any challenge, you run for cover. Your belief is a swiss cheese of holes and you are scared of the holes being identified.

Bluntly, you came to a vigorous discussion board armed with no more than a spork.

The rest of us have a full set of professional chef's knives and we keep them sharp.

Has it ever occurred to you to wonder why it is that your magic sky fairy is so fragile? And ineffectual?

I'm not surrendering anything. I'd have continued my argument with possibletarian if I thought there were any point to it, for one. Second, I came in here angry, was angered even further by the intense condescension that is so pervasive around atheists, and wrongly responded with a vengeful spirit. I needed to walk away from that. There is so much vitriol here that it's infectious; can't be pleasant for you all, either. Your name is very appropriate, Abbadon Ire.

To be clear, I'm not reopening my debate with possibletarian. I gave him the last word. Everything I said was true, even if delivered in a wrongful spirit. The blind cannot see their blindness.

The answer is evidence. We can observe the evidence so we know for a fact something is happening. "Dark Matter" is a label of convenience until we work it out.

This is a recurring feature with the religious, if we don't know this thing then we don't know anything therefore all science is suspect and open to question.

Somehow, they glom onto the fact that all science is open to question as a weakness and that is it's strength. Do the religious believe that their faith du jour is open to questioning? Examination? Testing?

Of course not.

That wasn't my point in arguing about Dark Matter, though I do believe I made a mistake in conflating that reply in that particular line of argument. Actually, I'm not sure I had the point developed at all, but no matter. I have a response.

Faith in the existence of Dark Matter is still a kind of faith. It's something that hasn't been proven to you to exist (not taking its lack of definition into account), but you believe it exists. Yes, you could actually see it if you took the time to learn the science. But if you would repent, i.e. "do the work for yourself," God would manifest Himself to you as well. You would be given further proof (not that it's necessary), if only you behaved as He says you should. Feel true remorse, make restitution to your victims, confess your sins to the people you need to, and turn from your evil. Still, repentance is a gift from God; you have no power to do these things on your own.

Anyway, I think where I was initially going with that is that faith in Dark Matter is something you have because you want to have it; faith in God you don't actually want, or He would give it to you. Or, you don't want it for the right reasons:

"You crave what you do not have. You kill and covet, but are unable to obtain it. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask. And when you do ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may squander it on your pleasures." (James 4:2-3)

That is unrelated, however, to God's existence, which as I've said many times over, is clearly observable to you all. You demand higher standards of proof because you have no interest in God. Your cry of "there is no proof" is how you justify this lack of desire, or it's your angry and bitter reply to His withholding Himself from you due to your seeking Him with the wrong motives. He seeks contrition, not a spirit coveting knowledge or power or glory. Those things only bring misery.

That's how miles rocks. He claims to be all humble and contrite and promptly hurls hell and damnation on any who disagree with him. Bog standard fundie.

I do regret my anger, and have repented of it. Not because you all are right; you deserve every bit of hell and damnation, as we all do. I'm sorry for it because it grieves the Lord to see hell and damnation hurled without reluctance. As the Scriptures say, "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live." (Ezekiel 18:32)

Hammurabi predates your magic book and was literally written in stone. The chinese kept written records all the way through your magic global flood without noticing it happened at all, speaking of which, the holey babble plagiarised that from the earlier Epic of Gilgamesh. Do you even make a vague attempt to address such glaring fuckups? No. You glom onto the hyperbole of "bronze age" in order to distract from the glaring inconsistencies and flat out lies in your big bumper book of bullshit.

This is all assumption. The Torah could have easily been copied from earlier manuscripts extant at the time or passed down via oral tradition. To say otherwise is simply intellectually dishonest, and to spout off in the manner you do as though you are dealing with ironclad facts is totally irresponsible. Arguing that Moses wrote about his own funeral is similarly irresponsible. Obviously, someone else, likely Joshua, wrote that portion of Deuteronomy.

[MilesAbbott81]

One more reply to make on some of this old material.

Why would I be glad? I'm not interested in eternal life, and I have no intention of worshipping any god that would condemn sentient beings to eternal suffering.

If you'd been paying attention, you would've read my first post in this thread, where I made it perfectly clear that I hold the doctrine of eternal torment to be blasphemy. You're speaking of a god that is the bastard child of paganism and Christianity, birthed by the whore, Mystery Babylon.

I mention this only because I believe this doctrine to be a major hurdle for atheists. Clearly it's a wicked doctrine that does not at all align with the character of a merciful God. I suppose I can even understand the hatred you have for this supposed god, but you should be careful where you shoot that half-cocked gun in the future.

[The Grand Nudger]

I applaud your attempt to soften the bloodgod's rough edges by suggesting that the stories in magic book may not be credible.   Ultimately, however, one can't -be- a christian without believing in some horrid shit.   Even if we assert that hell is syncretic fiction (as it certainly is), it would still be the case that we are cursed by a god, and that this god has decided that the way to move forward from that is vicarious redemption.  

More academically, noting that some portion of a myth is syncretic is hardly a coherent condemnation of that thing when the entire story is syncretic.  If being the bastard of paganism and christianity is a disqualifier, the entirety of the myth is disqualified. Not just the bits and pieces some specific christian finds distasteful. The very notion of chirst is, itself, of pagan origin.

Now, fundamentally. So what if there's a hell? So what if god does wicked and unmerciful things? Hell isn't exactly the only example in magic book, lol. Maybe that's just how god is. Your being ideologically dissatisfied with it is no argument against it's truth. A god that does evil things is still a god. Insisting that this, then wouldn't be the god of magic book (or anything to it's equivalence) would be facile. OFC it is, otherwise you 'd have neither the opportunity nor inclination to strike it from magic book with whiteout by calling it "pagan" - as though this differentiated any part of magic book from another. The god of magic book is many things, many not-nice™ things.

[GrandizerII]

One more reply to make on some of this old material.

Why would I be glad?  I'm not interested in eternal life, and I have no intention of worshipping any god that would condemn sentient beings to eternal suffering.

If you'd been paying attention, you would've read my first post in this thread, where I made it perfectly clear that I hold the doctrine of eternal torment to be blasphemy. You're speaking of a god that is the bastard child of paganism and Christianity, birthed by the whore, Mystery Babylon.

I mention this only because I believe this doctrine to be a major hurdle for atheists. Clearly it's a wicked doctrine that does not at all align with the character of a merciful God. I suppose I can even understand the hatred you have for this supposed god, but you should be careful where you shoot that half-cocked gun in the future.

So you're an annihilationist? Good to know! I can say fuck God and fuck the Holy Spirit, and I'll still rest in peace when I die.

[The Grand Nudger]

He doesn't trap you forever in torment, he just offs you.  See, real swell guy. 

[MilesAbbott81]

I applaud your attempt to soften the bloodgod's rough edges by suggesting that the stories in magic book may not be credible.   Ultimately, however, one can't -be- a christian without believing in some horrid shit.   Even if we assert that hell is syncretic fiction (as it certainly is), it would still be the case that we are cursed by a god, and that this god has decided that the way to move forward from that is vicarious redemption. 

More academically, noting that some portion of a myth is syncretic is hardly a coherent condemnation of that thing when the entire story is syncretic.  If being the bastard of paganism and christianity is a disqualifier, the entirety of the myth is disqualified.  Not just the bits and pieces some specific christian finds distasteful.  The very notion of chirst is, itself, of pagan origin.

Hell is not syncretic fiction. There are realms beyond this world, where the lake of fire (which is metaphorical) purges with sulfur (a purifying agent, again metaphorical). The lake of fire exists to correct us, not to destroy or annihilate us. But neither is "hell" really a physical place. It's a spiritual reality, one where we all exist until the Lord delivers us, which is a long and excruciating process (crucifixion). There are many instances where "Sheol" is described in the Old Testament as a reality for people who were actually writing it, such as the Psalms and the book of Jonah:

"Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the belly of the fish, saying, “I called out to the LORD, out of my distress, and He answered me; out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and You heard my voice." (Jonah 2:1-2)

If you die unsaved in this world, you die "in hell," after which you move on to the next world, which is still hell because you've not yet been delivered from it.

Now, fundamentally.  So what if there's a hell?  So what if god does wicked and unmerciful things?  Hell isn't exactly the only example in magic book, lol.  Maybe that's just how god is.  Your being ideologically dissatisfied with it is no argument against it's truth.  A god that does evil things is still a god.   Insisting that this, then wouldn't be the god of magic book (or anything to it's equivalence) would be facile.  OFC it is, otherwise you 'd have neither the opportunity nor inclination to strike it from magic book with whiteout by calling it "pagan" - as though this differentiated any part of magic book from another.  The god of magic book is many things, many not-nice™ things.

God never does wicked things. I will say that He temporarily withholds mercy from us, but we always need or deserve it. Your problem is you view some of His doings as evil because you lack the proper perspective. It's a very difficult thing to come to terms with the harshness of His judgments, true. But right now you're operating under certain assumptions and carnal rationale, neither of which are wise or useful in the grand scheme.

For instance, if the end result is that everyone is saved, absolutely everyone, and that every tear is wiped away, well...all is well that ends well, don't you think? And this is the truth, one for which you will one day be most thankful.

Consider that you are being made in the image of the Eternal and Omnipotent God. This is no small matter or responsibility. To be forged into this image, intense fire is required; crucifixion is required. I don't use these words lightly. Everyone must suffer intensely in order to be forged, but the end result is the strongest of steel. And how could it not be? It's not your power at work, but God's.

One final point. The notion of Christ is not of pagan origin. This is a notion created by skeptics without any basis in fact. I'll use the film Religulous as an example. Practically all of the parallels Maher draws there are patently false or misleading. If you're unaware, you should look into it. Here is just a short example of rebuttal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdkxdiPDlkw

[GrandizerII]

No annihilation? Nah, fuck that, when I die I want my soul to be offed dammit!

[MilesAbbott81]

So you're an annihilationist? Good to know! I can say fuck God and fuck the Holy Spirit, and I'll still rest in peace when I die.

Wrong, on both both accounts. You will move on and your suffering will continue until you repent, and even this very sentence you've written will have an effect:

"But I say to you that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." (Matthew 12:36)