Help me not fear heaven/hell

[The Grand Nudger]

To his credit, he seems to be able to recognize when he made a mistake....though IDK that he handles that realization very well.  Perhaps people afraid for their immortal souls will just have to count on god figuring out he fucked up, again, and handling it better this time than the last, or the time before that?

If he doesn't, I guess we're just stuck in an impossible situation where some omnipotent toddler throws his toys in a bonfire on account of being bored or displeased with them. Nothing we can do in that case.

What's that thing that the faithful are always needlepointing and praying to god for? ah, yeah...

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

[fredd bear]

@tacky

"I suppose, conceptually that death signifies the termination of sensory input in the materialist view. "

Well yes, but that is only part.

With death comes oblivion. No brain activity, no awareness, no dreaming, it's the end of personal existence.

My mind cannot imagine 'nothingness'. I have died in a dream once. What I experienced was blackness and a sense of falling.

Of course, we all have periods of 'nothingness'; in dreamless sleep.

I don't accept the theological sleight of hand trying to prove god gave us free will. This is assuming he exits, which I am unable to believe.

It is also my perception as an atheist that free will is largely an illusion. I accept both genetic and situational determinism. I guess that makes me a soft determinist. I have no idea to what extent free will is an illusion. I suspect is is 'mostly' . Another of those pesky unfalsifiable claims.

At this point in my life, simply don't have the interest to argue determinism. Regardless of the position I take I take, my daily life will not change. I guess that's intellectually lazy. That's part of it. The other part is that I find it hard going to keep up with the some of the threads with Gae and co.

[tackattack]

[fredd bear]

[The Grand Nudger]

Jesus demonstrated that He knew God's will, didn't want it (had a choice) temporarily but complied with it anyway.  If Christians have an issue with that they can take it up with the authors.

I'm not sure how that modifies either of our comments on the subject.  You say that god could sin.  I note that this would surprise many christians.  I;m not all that concerned with what the authors of magic book said, because you all see whatever you want to see in magic book.  I'm more concerned with you, as an author of your own comments.  You're reaffirming your belief, here, that god can sin..but in a few short sentences you'll define sinning as "acting against god" and further claim that god is good and all other things are evil.

God can act against himself?  God can do evil?

Going back to your tasteless example. You might never envision a scenario where you would choose to skullfuck anything. But choices can be made for you, even over your dead body. the actuality is that there is a kid and there is a peter and the 2 can be made to come together, with or without your volition. I notice you're intentionally not saying that you'd "never choose to skullfuck a child." you're just claiming it could never manifest, when there are lots of scenarios where it could be.

Oh my goodness, break out the smelling salts.  The guy who thinks that skewering the better man is a good and godly idea that will cover his own innumerable sins finds skullfucking children to be a tasteless example, lol.

If choices are being made for me, then I'm not the one freely willing anything.  I'm noting that if I have free will, I have free will.  The possession of this free will thing doesn't seem to grant me any particular ability.   I can't skullfuck a kid just like I can't jump all the way to the moon.  My shit just doesn't work like that.  Why having free will would grant me the ability to sin is a conundrum for the same reasons.  If you had free will but were physically incapable, or just didn't want to sin..then the possession of that free will thing doesn't actually make sin possible for you.  Some other thing may, who knows. There's obviously some difference between a skullfucker and a non skullfucker and if we both have free will, it's possession aint it.

It's not really clear how or that I'm capable of some sin that -isn't- skullfucking children, even sin as you define it.  I'd love to hear how some jumped up chimp so much as possesses the -ability- to act against a god, whether it wants to or not. The undercurrent to all of this being that a god is super duper concerned with the ants below "acting against him", however that;s accomplished, in the first place. I guess that's just par for the course with this type of stuff.

I will agree that you don't need will to have sin. Sin is an external. You do need will to commit sin because commit is an action that requires volition or movement. You can act on that external, taking the responsibility from the "Yes there is sin out there" to the "I committed a sin" through volition.

Ruh ruh....so there can be sin without free will, and free will without sin, after all.  You're going to have a hard time correcting Snow and having this convo with me.  

With response to helping the OP, stop letting other people's fears become your fears, and deal with the now.

Ok, I'll elaborate why I think free will is indicative of the ability to sin and why sin is indicative of free will.
If, assuming that God exists and He created Evil and
A. the definition of sin is to act against God's will
B. the definition of free will is independent volition
Then
C. You cannot have B without a choice.
If
1. the nature of God is good and everything else is evil
Then creating evil allowed choice, thus allowing free will.

Doesn't follow.  On top of that, you're making a claim that directly contradicts your comments above.  It doesn't actually matter whether or not you could have b without choice (and innate depravity argues that you don't have a choice just as competently as it argues that neither will nor free will are required for sin), nor does it matter whether god is good and everything else is evil.  The mere presence of two options doesn't mean that you will take either, want to take either, or can take either.  There's the option to skullfuck a child, and the option to -not- skullfuck a child.  If my will is free, it still isn't free on this.  Nothing about "allowing" me to have this option (gee thanks god, lol) grants me any free will.  We could do the same all over again with jumping to the moon, and offending or "acting against" a god. I'll say this, I wish he would have "allowed" me the option to jump to the moon, instead.

You can only have free will without sin only if you believe sin, as defined doesn't exist, which I believe you said was your stance. Please fill me in on your definitions of free will and how it is independent of choice.

Another non sequitur, and that's not what I told you at all. I suggested that the christian notion of sin was garbage top to bottom, for reasons you've kindly demonstrated in your posts.   I also added in posts in thread that sin is well at home in secular language, and that the notion that there could be things that were offensive to gods, if gods existed, is a rather mundane and believable claim so far as god claims go.  Obviously, I think that notions of sin that don't reduce to irritating the wrong ghost take the subject a tad bit more seriously.  

I don't define free will, nor do I argue that free will would be independent of choice..but if there were free will, it would have to be a bit more than just a choice, as we can make a choice regardless of whether or not our will is free....but none of this has anything to do with sin and none of your attempts to tie the two have passed the acid test , suceeded on their own grounds, or even been coherent with respect to your own thoughts on the matter.

Like I said before.  The christian notion fails for reasons wholly unrelated to the claim that there are no gods or that there is no sin or whether free will even exists. You're expressing an article of your faith, not a cogent position. In the process, you cheapen he subject, your faith, your god, and yourself. IMO.

That's the real sin.

[tackattack]

[The Grand Nudger]

Heads you win tails everyone else loses, I guess.  : shrugs :

You contradicted yourself from breath to breath, while dropping a series of non-sequiturs. This is what makes the christian notion of sin garbage. If there were gods, and there was sin, and there were free will..it would still be garbage.

It's also why no person should spend much time being afraid of sin and hell.

I don;t expect to convince you of some point contrary to your beliefs, but I would at least like to help you convey them better, and who knows, maybe even understand them better (and accept them) for what they are rather than what you wish they were - but there's only so far you can go with that. In the end, you'll be able to more accurately convey a flawed and petty notion that you nevertheless deeply hold to be true - and that's okay.

This spirals down into non religious shit too, like the ridiculous idea that choice and free will are equivalent. If you're just the kind of person who would choose a because of your nature, you still chose a..you just didn't do it freely. Robots make routine selections between options.

[fredd bear]

edit double post

[Catharsis]

It's also why no person should spend much time being afraid of sin and hell.

Fearing sin or hell isn't the point of believing, it's about fearing the only one able to put you there if you know what that means.

[Abaddon_ire]

What a BS question. "Sin" is a mere theological fantasy. A method of control over the masses invented by those cross-dressing perverts.

It was a BS question and as wyzas pointed out it has to do with the definition. I could just as easily say "Math" is a mere mathematical fantasy. A method of control over the masses invented by those cross dressing perverts. Like it or not Abaddon, words have meanings,

Wrong. Words do not have meanings, they have usages. There is a difference.