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March 27, 2019 at 5:32 pm (This post was last modified: March 27, 2019 at 5:35 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
To his credit, he seems to be able to recognize when he made a mistake....though IDK that he handles that realization very well. Perhaps people afraid for their immortal souls will just have to count on god figuring out he fucked up, again, and handling it better this time than the last, or the time before that?
If he doesn't, I guess we're just stuck in an impossible situation where some omnipotent toddler throws his toys in a bonfire on account of being bored or displeased with them. Nothing we can do in that case.
What's that thing that the faithful are always needlepointing and praying to god for? ah, yeah...
Quote:Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
March 27, 2019 at 5:41 pm (This post was last modified: March 27, 2019 at 5:45 pm by fredd bear.)
@tacky
"I suppose, conceptually that death signifies the termination of sensory input in the materialist view. "
Well yes, but that is only part.
With death comes oblivion. No brain activity, no awareness, no dreaming, it's the end of personal existence.
My mind cannot imagine 'nothingness'. I have died in a dream once. What I experienced was blackness and a sense of falling.
Of course, we all have periods of 'nothingness'; in dreamless sleep.
I don't accept the theological sleight of hand trying to prove god gave us free will. This is assuming he exits, which I am unable to believe.
It is also my perception as an atheist that free will is largely an illusion. I accept both genetic and situational determinism. I guess that makes me a soft determinist. I have no idea to what extent free will is an illusion. I suspect is is 'mostly' . Another of those pesky unfalsifiable claims.
At this point in my life, simply don't have the interest to argue determinism. Regardless of the position I take I take, my daily life will not change. I guess that's intellectually lazy. That's part of it. The other part is that I find it hard going to keep up with the some of the threads with Gae and co.
March 27, 2019 at 5:59 pm (This post was last modified: March 27, 2019 at 6:05 pm by tackattack.
Edit Reason: clarity
)
(March 27, 2019 at 4:38 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote:
(March 27, 2019 at 4:02 pm)tackattack Wrote: Practically, you could skullfuck a child. If you have the right equipment. Would you is a different question and is being only part of this particular part of the conversation. I agree, if you have free will you have free will. Absolute evil is the space opposite of absolute good in the vernacular. Sin is action opposite of God's will, in the vernacular. Did Christ have free will? Did Christ sin? Could Christ have sinned? Yes. No, Yes.
I think that many christians will be surprised to hear that god can sin. I guess I don't have the right equipment to skullfuck a child even though I do have free will.
Quote:You can't really get rid of the interpretive structure we use to process. You can't separate the information harvester from the process. You don't have to will to be what you are, but that's a very nascent form of information gatherer without volition. We constantly will ourselves otherwise, intentionally or instinctively, albeit incrementally.
Then you don't need will, let alone free will, for whatever innate depravity that christians refer to as sin.
Quote:I suppose, conceptually that death signifies the termination of sensory input in the materialist view. No input no choice, no choice no will. If you retain your free will in death then there would have to be a choice and an input to continue the cycle of choosing, learning and growing. I don't know why it would matter if you kept or lost your free will in death, that wasn't my point. My point was the connotation of sin implies that you can sin this side of the afterlife. Snow seems to imply a belief "True Christians" can't sin and I was allowing snow to ellaborate on their concept.
If we can sin this side of the afterlife, can we sin on the other?
You're giving Snow a chance to elaborate on his idea of how (or when, r why) christians can't sin..I'm giving you an opportunity to elaborate on why you think free will is required for or indicative of the ability to sin...or, if you prefer....why sin would require or be indicative of free will. Mostly because neither seems to be the case...or if either is the case, then some portion of christian theology is wrong.
This could, ofc, help op (or anyone else) with his general fear. If op just can't do anything about his sin because it's innate..well, that's that. He'll just have to learn to accept what he can't change or will to the contrary. If OP can only sin if he freely wills it, then he need not fear internal sabotage an can simply focus on being a good person.
-and if this whole christian sin song and dance is garbage from top to bottom........
Personally, I think that christian belief is a sin, both in the context of something that could or would offend a god, and in the context of a thoroughly earthly appraisal, lol..so..there's always that. I've found that this can sometimes help people worrying about the disposition of their souls, even christians with that worry, provided that they aren't the dogmatic types with inerrantist or literalist beliefs.
(or, : shudder :...both )
Jesus demonstrated that He knew God's will, didn't want it (had a choice) temporarily but complied with it anyway. If Christians have an issue with that they can take it up with the authors.
Going back to your tasteless example. You might never envision a scenario where you would choose to skullfuck anything. But choices can be made for you, even over your dead body. the actuality is that there is a kid and there is a peter and the 2 can be made to come together, with or without your volition. I notice you're intentionally not saying that you'd "never choose to skullfuck a child." you're just claiming it could never manifest, when there are lots of scenarios where it could be.
I will agree that you don't need will to have sin. Sin is an external. You do need will to commit sin because commit is an action that requires volition or movement. You can act on that external, taking the responsibility from the "Yes there is sin out there" to the "I committed a sin" through volition.
With response to helping the OP, stop letting other people's fears become your fears, and deal with the now.
Ok, I'll elaborate why I think free will is indicative of the ability to sin and why sin is indicative of free will.
If, assuming that God exists and He created Evil and
A. the definition of sin is to act against God's will
B. the definition of free will is independent volition
Then
C. You cannot have B without a choice.
If
1. the nature of God is good and everything else is evil
Then creating evil allowed choice, thus allowing free will.
You can only have free will without sin only if you believe sin, as defined doesn't exist, which I believe you said was your stance. Please fill me in on your definitions of free will and how it is independent of choice.
(March 27, 2019 at 5:07 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It seems as though God could have simplified all this mess by creating only those people he knew would never, of their own free will, commit a sinful act.
Boru
Then there would be no free will, thus a planet of robots. See above.
@fredd bear I understand you accept that God gave us free will because you don't accept the premise.
will (free or not) isn't illusory, it's a fundmental part of the construct. We are not all just blank slates receiving sensory input. Mainly because slates can't cogitate, it takes an information harvester, a force of will, an attention director to narrow our input to something usable an real for us.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
I think that many christians will be surprised to hear that god can sin. I guess I don't have the right equipment to skullfuck a child even though I do have free will.
Then you don't need will, let alone free will, for whatever innate depravity that christians refer to as sin.
If we can sin this side of the afterlife, can we sin on the other?
You're giving Snow a chance to elaborate on his idea of how (or when, r why) christians can't sin..I'm giving you an opportunity to elaborate on why you think free will is required for or indicative of the ability to sin...or, if you prefer....why sin would require or be indicative of free will. Mostly because neither seems to be the case...or if either is the case, then some portion of christian theology is wrong.
This could, ofc, help op (or anyone else) with his general fear. If op just can't do anything about his sin because it's innate..well, that's that. He'll just have to learn to accept what he can't change or will to the contrary. If OP can only sin if he freely wills it, then he need not fear internal sabotage an can simply focus on being a good person.
-and if this whole christian sin song and dance is garbage from top to bottom........
Personally, I think that christian belief is a sin, both in the context of something that could or would offend a god, and in the context of a thoroughly earthly appraisal, lol..so..there's always that. I've found that this can sometimes help people worrying about the disposition of their souls, even christians with that worry, provided that they aren't the dogmatic types with inerrantist or literalist beliefs.
(or, : shudder :...both )
Jesus demonstrated that He knew God's will, didn't want it (had a choice) temporarily but complied with it anyway. If Christians have an issue with that they can take it up with the authors.
Going back to your tasteless example. You might never envision a scenario where you would choose to skullfuck anything. But choices can be made for you, even over your dead body. the actuality is that there is a kid and there is a peter and the 2 can be made to come together, with or without your volition. I notice you're intentionally not saying that you'd "never choose to skullfuck a child." you're just claiming it could never manifest, when there are lots of scenarios where it could be.
I will agree that you don't need will to have sin. Sin is an external. You do need will to commit sin because commit is an action that requires volition or movement. You can act on that external, taking the responsibility from the "Yes there is sin out there" to the "I committed a sin" through volition.
With response to helping the OP, stop letting other people's fears become your fears, and deal with the now.
Ok, I'll elaborate why I think free will is indicative of the ability to sin and why sin is indicative of free will.
If, assuming that God exists and He created Evil and
A. the definition of sin is to act against God's will
B. the definition of free will is independent volition
Then
C. You cannot have B without a choice.
If
1. the nature of God is good and everything else is evil
Then creating evil allowed choice, thus allowing free will.
You can only have free will without sin only if you believe sin, as defined doesn't exist, which I believe you said was your stance. Please fill me in on your definitions of free will and how it is independent of choice.
(March 27, 2019 at 5:07 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It seems as though God could have simplified all this mess by creating only those people he knew would never, of their own free will, commit a sinful act.
Boru
Then there would be no free will, thus a planet of robots. See above.
@fredd bear I understand you accept that God gave us free will because you don't accept the premise.
will (free or not) isn't illusory, it's a fundmental part of the construct. We are not all just blank slates receiving sensory input. Mainly because slates can't cogitate, it takes an information harvester, a force of will, an attention director to narrow our input to something usable an real for us.
As I . said, it's another of those unfalsifiable claims. I'm afraid we will need to agree to differ.
March 27, 2019 at 7:34 pm (This post was last modified: March 27, 2019 at 8:07 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(March 27, 2019 at 5:59 pm)tackattack Wrote: Jesus demonstrated that He knew God's will, didn't want it (had a choice) temporarily but complied with it anyway. If Christians have an issue with that they can take it up with the authors.
I'm not sure how that modifies either of our comments on the subject. You say that god could sin. I note that this would surprise many christians. I;m not all that concerned with what the authors of magic book said, because you all see whatever you want to see in magic book. I'm more concerned with you, as an author of your own comments. You're reaffirming your belief, here, that god can sin..but in a few short sentences you'll define sinning as "acting against god" and further claim that god is good and all other things are evil.
God can act against himself? God can do evil?
Quote:Going back to your tasteless example. You might never envision a scenario where you would choose to skullfuck anything. But choices can be made for you, even over your dead body. the actuality is that there is a kid and there is a peter and the 2 can be made to come together, with or without your volition. I notice you're intentionally not saying that you'd "never choose to skullfuck a child." you're just claiming it could never manifest, when there are lots of scenarios where it could be.
Oh my goodness, break out the smelling salts. The guy who thinks that skewering the better man is a good and godly idea that will cover his own innumerable sins finds skullfucking children to be a tasteless example, lol.
If choices are being made for me, then I'm not the one freely willing anything. I'm noting that if I have free will, I have free will. The possession of this free will thing doesn't seem to grant me any particular ability. I can't skullfuck a kid just like I can't jump all the way to the moon. My shit just doesn't work like that. Why having free will would grant me the ability to sin is a conundrum for the same reasons. If you had free will but were physically incapable, or just didn't want to sin..then the possession of that free will thing doesn't actually make sin possible for you. Some other thing may, who knows. There's obviously some difference between a skullfucker and a non skullfucker and if we both have free will, it's possession aint it.
It's not really clear how or that I'm capable of some sin that -isn't- skullfucking children, even sin as you define it. I'd love to hear how some jumped up chimp so much as possesses the -ability- to act against a god, whether it wants to or not. The undercurrent to all of this being that a god is super duper concerned with the ants below "acting against him", however that;s accomplished, in the first place. I guess that's just par for the course with this type of stuff.
Quote:I will agree that you don't need will to have sin. Sin is an external. You do need will to commit sin because commit is an action that requires volition or movement. You can act on that external, taking the responsibility from the "Yes there is sin out there" to the "I committed a sin" through volition.
Ruh ruh....so there can be sin without free will, and free will without sin, after all. You're going to have a hard time correcting Snow and having this convo with me.
Quote:With response to helping the OP, stop letting other people's fears become your fears, and deal with the now.
Ok, I'll elaborate why I think free will is indicative of the ability to sin and why sin is indicative of free will.
If, assuming that God exists and He created Evil and
A. the definition of sin is to act against God's will
B. the definition of free will is independent volition
Then
C. You cannot have B without a choice.
If
1. the nature of God is good and everything else is evil
Then creating evil allowed choice, thus allowing free will.
Doesn't follow. On top of that, you're making a claim that directly contradicts your comments above. It doesn't actually matter whether or not you could have b without choice (and innate depravity argues that you don't have a choice just as competently as it argues that neither will nor free will are required for sin), nor does it matter whether god is good and everything else is evil. The mere presence of two options doesn't mean that you will take either, want to take either, or can take either. There's the option to skullfuck a child, and the option to -not- skullfuck a child. If my will is free, it still isn't free on this. Nothing about "allowing" me to have this option (gee thanks god, lol) grants me any free will. We could do the same all over again with jumping to the moon, and offending or "acting against" a god. I'll say this, I wish he would have "allowed" me the option to jump to the moon, instead.
Quote:You can only have free will without sin only if you believe sin, as defined doesn't exist, which I believe you said was your stance. Please fill me in on your definitions of free will and how it is independent of choice.
Another non sequitur, and that's not what I told you at all. I suggested that the christian notion of sin was garbage top to bottom, for reasons you've kindly demonstrated in your posts. I also added in posts in thread that sin is well at home in secular language, and that the notion that there could be things that were offensive to gods, if gods existed, is a rather mundane and believable claim so far as god claims go. Obviously, I think that notions of sin that don't reduce to irritating the wrong ghost take the subject a tad bit more seriously.
I don't define free will, nor do I argue that free will would be independent of choice..but if there were free will, it would have to be a bit more than just a choice, as we can make a choice regardless of whether or not our will is free....but none of this has anything to do with sin and none of your attempts to tie the two have passed the acid test , suceeded on their own grounds, or even been coherent with respect to your own thoughts on the matter.
Like I said before. The christian notion fails for reasons wholly unrelated to the claim that there are no gods or that there is no sin or whether free will even exists. You're expressing an article of your faith, not a cogent position. In the process, you cheapen he subject, your faith, your god, and yourself. IMO.
That's the real sin.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(March 27, 2019 at 5:59 pm)tackattack Wrote: Jesus demonstrated that He knew God's will, didn't want it (had a choice) temporarily but complied with it anyway. If Christians have an issue with that they can take it up with the authors.
I'm not sure how that modifies either of our comments on the subject. You say that god could sin. I note that this would surprise many christians. I;m not all that concerned with what the authors of magic book said, because you all see whatever you want to see in magic book. I'm more concerned with you, as an author of your own comments. You're reaffirming your belief, here, that god can sin..but in a few short sentences you'll define sinning as "acting against god" and further claim that god is good and all other things are evil.
God can act against himself? God can do evil?
The distinctions is with Jesus and the Godhead. By God incarnating in the Mortal constraints of Jesus, Jesus was capable of sinning. If God's nature is good and good is the opposite of evil and if God can't be who/what he's not then he can't do evil. He does allow evil and can use it for the good. Evil is a human creation.
Quote:
Quote:Going back to your tasteless example. You might never envision a scenario where you would choose to skullfuck anything. But choices can be made for you, even over your dead body. the actuality is that there is a kid and there is a peter and the 2 can be made to come together, with or without your volition. I notice you're intentionally not saying that you'd "never choose to skullfuck a child." you're just claiming it could never manifest, when there are lots of scenarios where it could be.
Oh my goodness, break out the smelling salts. The guy who thinks that skewering the better man is a good and godly idea that will cover his own innumerable sins finds skullfucking children to be a tasteless example, lol.
If choices are being made for me, then I'm not the one freely willing anything. I'm noting that if I have free will, I have free will. The possession of this free will thing doesn't seem to grant me any particular ability. I can't skullfuck a kid just like I can't jump all the way to the moon. My shit just doesn't work like that. Why having free will would grant me the ability to sin is a conundrum for the same reasons. If you had free will but were physically incapable, or just didn't want to sin..then the possession of that free will thing doesn't actually make sin possible for you. Some other thing may, who knows. There's obviously some difference between a skullfucker and a non skullfucker and if we both have free will, it's possession aint it.
It's not really clear how or that I'm capable of some sin that -isn't- skullfucking children, even sin as you define it. I'd love to hear how some jumped up chimp so much as possesses the -ability- to act against a god, whether it wants to or not. The undercurrent to all of this being that a god is super duper concerned with the ants below "acting against him", however that;s accomplished, in the first place. I guess that's just par for the course with this type of stuff.
Quote:
Quote:I will agree that you don't need will to have sin. Sin is an external. You do need will to commit sin because commit is an action that requires volition or movement. You can act on that external, taking the responsibility from the "Yes there is sin out there" to the "I committed a sin" through volition.
Ruh ruh....so there can be sin without free will, and free will without sin, after all. You're going to have a hard time correcting Snow and having this convo with me.
ok steel magnolias, if you had free will but were physically incapable, or just didn't want to sin..then the possession of that free will thing is innate and inactive because you're not choosing. Then again not choosing is a choice and informs other causes to whatever effect and outcome. Your free will is a choice in the available space that is sin/God's will. You could jump to the moon with sufficient tools. I think we're getting muddied in the definitions. You can sin (action) which is a causal act of volition. There is the ability to Sin (placement of said action) which is either in our out of God's will.
You don't need will to have sin (the place). You do need will to be able to sin (act). It's a pretty simple concept. I can see ahead that the light is turning red. I have a choice to stop, or not, or ignore the red light. Not stopping, from ignoring or disobeying, are both crimes. While sitting at the stop light I could ignore that red light and commit a crime because I have control to push the accelerator and because the stop light is there. You can't say the traffic violation isn't possible because you stopped at the red light. You can say that you complied with the law and stopped and committed no violation. You didn't sin, but it is still possible for you to sin, because the opportunity to sin exists external to you.
Quote:
Quote:With response to helping the OP, stop letting other people's fears become your fears, and deal with the now.
Ok, I'll elaborate why I think free will is indicative of the ability to sin and why sin is indicative of free will.
If, assuming that God exists and He created Evil and
A. the definition of sin is to act against God's will
B. the definition of free will is independent volition
Then
C. You cannot have B without a choice.
If
1. the nature of God is good and everything else is evil
Then creating evil allowed choice, thus allowing free will.
Doesn't follow. On top of that, you're making a claim that directly contradicts your comments above. It doesn't actually matter whether or not you could have b without choice (and innate depravity argues that you don't have a choice just as competently as it argues that neither will nor free will are required for sin), nor does it matter whether god is good and everything else is evil. The mere presence of two options doesn't mean that you will take either, want to take either, or can take either. There's the option to skullfuck a child, and the option to -not- skullfuck a child. If my will is free, it still isn't free on this. Nothing about "allowing" me to have this option (gee thanks god, lol) grants me any free will. We could do the same all over again with jumping to the moon, and offending or "acting against" a god. I'll say this, I wish he would have "allowed" me the option to jump to the moon, instead.
The moon exists whether you can jump to it or not. You could jump to the moon with sufficient tools. Even someone without legs can "jump to the moon" if you're not getting the definitions right. The simple fact you have the option IS a choice. Choice is free will. The presence of 2 options does mean you have volition. It doesn't indicate your predilection to do either, or nothing.
Quote:
Quote:You can only have free will without sin only if you believe sin, as defined doesn't exist, which I believe you said was your stance. Please fill me in on your definitions of free will and how it is independent of choice.
Another non sequitur, and that's not what I told you at all. I suggested that the christian notion of sin was garbage top to bottom, for reasons you've kindly demonstrated in your posts. I also added in posts in thread that sin is well at home in secular language, and that the notion that there could be things that were offensive to gods, if gods existed, is a rather mundane and believable claim so far as god claims go. Obviously, I think that notions of sin that don't reduce to irritating the wrong ghost take the subject a tad bit more seriously.
I don't define free will, nor do I argue that free will would be independent of choice..but if there were free will, it would have to be a bit more than just a choice, as we can make a choice regardless of whether or not our will is free....but none of this has anything to do with sin and none of your attempts to tie the two have passed the acid test , suceeded on their own grounds, or even been coherent with respect to your own thoughts on the matter.
Like I said before. The christian notion fails for reasons wholly unrelated to the claim that there are no gods or that there is no sin or whether free will even exists. You're expressing an article of your faith, not a cogent position. In the process, you cheapen he subject, your faith, your god, and yourself. IMO.
That's the real sin.
If you'd prefer to use a more common vernacular of secular sin (heinous act) for the purposes of this conversation we can but didn't I clearly explain my definitions above? It was a Christian conversation with assumed Christian definitions, I'm not the one muddying the waters. I may not be conveying it well, and for that I apologize, but it's not for my lack of trying. You can have options. You can make choices. When you self-author your actions based on the choice that available from the option; that's enacting free will.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
March 28, 2019 at 6:55 pm (This post was last modified: March 28, 2019 at 7:08 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Heads you win tails everyone else loses, I guess. : shrugs :
You contradicted yourself from breath to breath, while dropping a series of non-sequiturs. This is what makes the christian notion of sin garbage. If there were gods, and there was sin, and there were free will..it would still be garbage.
It's also why no person should spend much time being afraid of sin and hell.
I don;t expect to convince you of some point contrary to your beliefs, but I would at least like to help you convey them better, and who knows, maybe even understand them better (and accept them) for what they are rather than what you wish they were - but there's only so far you can go with that. In the end, you'll be able to more accurately convey a flawed and petty notion that you nevertheless deeply hold to be true - and that's okay.
This spirals down into non religious shit too, like the ridiculous idea that choice and free will are equivalent. If you're just the kind of person who would choose a because of your nature, you still chose a..you just didn't do it freely. Robots make routine selections between options.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(March 25, 2019 at 12:15 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: What a BS question. "Sin" is a mere theological fantasy. A method of control over the masses invented by those cross-dressing perverts.
It was a BS question and as wyzas pointed out it has to do with the definition. I could just as easily say "Math" is a mere mathematical fantasy. A method of control over the masses invented by those cross dressing perverts. Like it or not Abaddon, words have meanings,
Wrong. Words do not have meanings, they have usages. There is a difference.
