Abortion: 10 years as an atheist and I still don't get it

[The Grand Nudger]

Believing that something is bad doesn't make a person an absolutist.  We all believe that something or other is bad.

Your acceptance of the lesser of two evils is an acknowledgement of exclusively sub optimal ranges.  The moral decision to make if forced between the lesser of two evils..is what?

The lesser evil.  This is referred to as a final moral good. I rolled the answer to your q in a quick edit. Both psuedo realism and absolutist deontology rely on us acting as though these things were true while in possession of the knowledge that they are not. Not on "accepting a lie". This, also, can be contextualized as a final moral good.

[HappySkeptic]

Wow, this thread has gone off the rails.

Here's my take, and it's been mentioned by others across various posts.

Abortion must be legal for two reasons. First, the principle of bodily autonomy, which is a fundamental right of everyone since the beginning of humanity. You own your body, full stop. Anything else is slavery. If, for example, giving a blood donation would save someone's life, you still can't be forced to give one (perhaps outside the military). You are prior right to your body, even if your body could improve or save the live of another.

the OP virus has tried to distinguish between what should be legal, and what is morally right.

Here's my take on the morals of abortion -- morals are a reflection of values. The only person who's values matter is the only person to have standing in the question - the person who owns their own body. Right or wrong, good or bad, it is their morals that matter. Because they are the legal owner of their own body, they get to choose what happens to it, and they should use their own moral beliefs as a guide.

I'm not a pregnant woman, so I don't have the standing to sit on a soap-box and espouse my moral beliefs about it. I do have my own beliefs and values about how I would make a choice, if I were magically able to get pregnant, but since I can't, my opinion is moot (thought no, zygotes don't have souls )

[SenseMaker007]

Yet the pro-choice crowd does not seem to stop at legality. Most of them, as far as I understand, think that abortion is morally justifiable.

It is morally justifiable. Aborted fetuses don't suffer as much as adult women forced to give birth against their will.

[EgoDeath]

I'm very conflicted on the issue of abortion and always have been. That being said, I always have been and more than likely always will be pro-choice... however, there are things that no person on the left has ever been able to adequately answer...

1. If a woman chooses to have sex with someone, knowing that getting pregnant is a possible result of having sex, why should that women have the "right" to end that potential life? There seems to be this idea in today's age that we should all be able to do what we want without any repercussions or consequences. I think most women probably dread having to get an abortion, but if it is such a dreadful thing to go through, why even have sex in the first place? Abstinence is a pretty sure-fire way to never end up with an unwanted kid.

2. Why are we treating fetuses as being on the same level as an infection or something to get rid of? At the end of the day, a fetus is going to become a human. It's not the same as removing a wart or using medicine to get rid of a cold. You are ending a potential life.

I'm sure several members here will attempt to answer these, or even attempt to make me look silly for even asking these questions, but I've still never heard these questions answered to my satisfaction.

I think the undeniable fact is: abortion is a terrible thing. In a perfect world, it would never have to happen. Then again, in a perfect world, a child would never be brought up unwanted in a home not suitable for animals, let alone humans. In a perfect world, a woman would never have to carry her rapist's child. In a perfect world, a lot of things wouldn't happen, but we don't live in a perfect world.

In my opinion, abortions should be as limited as possible. But that's just the opinion of a cis-gendered straight white male, so to the left, my voice doesn't matter a whole lot.

[Cecelia]

I'm very conflicted on the issue of abortion and always have been. That being said, I always have been and more than likely always will be pro-choice... however, there are things that no person on the left has ever been able to adequately answer...

1. If a woman chooses to have sex with someone, knowing that getting pregnant is a possible result of having sex, why should that women have the "right" to end that potential life? There seems to be this idea in today's age that we should all be able to do what we want without any repercussions or consequences. I think most women probably dread having to get an abortion, but if it is such a dreadful thing to go through, why even have sex in the first place? Abstinence is a pretty sure-fire way to never end up with an unwanted kid.

2. Why are we treating fetuses as being on the same level as an infection or something to get rid of? At the end of the day, a fetus is going to become a human. It's not the same as removing a wart or using medicine to get rid of a cold. You are ending a potential life.

I'm sure several members here will attempt to answer these, or even attempt to make me look silly for even asking these questions, but I've still never heard these questions answered to my satisfaction.

I think the undeniable fact is: abortion is a terrible thing. In a perfect world, it would never have to happen. Then again, in a perfect world, a child would never be brought up unwanted in a home not suitable for animals, let alone humans. In a perfect world, a woman would never have to carry her rapist's child. In a perfect world, a lot of things wouldn't happen, but we don't live in a perfect world.

In my opinion, abortions should be as limited as possible. But that's just the opinion of a cis-gendered straight white male, so to the left, my voice doesn't matter a whole lot.

1. That this bothers you shows that this is, and never has been, about 'human life'.  It's about controlling women's sexuality.  "If you don't want a child, don't have sex!"  This is told to women time and again.  Of course, it's never told to men.  I'm sure some people when called out on it may say "Yeah, I think it for men too!" but it's always 100% an afterthought.  It's NEVER a part of the initial conversation.  That's because this is rooted in misogynist ideas that women should not enjoy sex, and should not have sex, and should remain virgins until marriage.  It's why women who have sex with 10 partners are called whores, while men who have sex with 10 partners are called players.  Women are taught they do not have a right to their own body, that it is owned by their father until they get married, then by their husband until they die.  If this were about human life in the least, this would not concern anyone.  It would not be any part of the debate.  But as we see, it's constantly part of the debate.  Because it's not about, and never has been about, human life.  It's been about controlling women's sexuality.

2. Potential life is meaningless.  Sperm is potential life, but we don't advocate the preservation of every sperm.  This is because, as stated in part one, this is and has always been about controlling women.  Yes, it may grow up to be a human (assuming the woman doesn't miscarry) but this again is meaningless.  It would be to suggest that rape victims should be forced to give birth to their rapist's baby, because---by definition, that fetus is STILL potential life.  We would not punish a 3 year old for an action taken by their father.  Of course, most are okay with rape exceptions because again, this is not and never has been about human life.  Oh sure, we see some states advocating for outlawing ALL cases of abortion.  And those are the states that treat women the WORST.  Where Rapists have a right to child custody, and mothers can be threatened with prison for not complying.  The fight against abortion is not about human life.  This much is clear, given the pro-life crowd does NOT advocate for the actual living.  Oh sure, some do.  But they are an extreme minority, and with good reason. 

3. Reducing abortion is fine.  And it can be done by providing free birth control and proper sex education -- two concepts the anti-choicers oppose.  Because again, this is not and has never been about human life.  They have framed it that way because that is the most convenient for them.  A majority of them have never cared about human life.    It should NOT, however, be done by telling women they should abstain from sex or by outlawing this medical procedure.

[pocaracas]

I'm very conflicted on the issue of abortion and always have been. That being said, I always have been and more than likely always will be pro-choice... however, there are things that no person on the left has ever been able to adequately answer...

Have you tried the right?
Why is this subject divided politically into right and left?
Is it because the right is "conservative" and thus just wants to retain the status quo of old times, when women had no rights whatsoever? Perhaps... Still, the right is also equated with liberal capitalist with no government oversight on how businesses are run... free market, they call it. Screw the people and make profit, I call it.

1. If a woman chooses to have sex with someone, knowing that getting pregnant is a possible result of having sex, why should that women have the "right" to end that potential life? There seems to be this idea in today's age that we should all be able to do what we want without any repercussions or consequences. I think most women probably dread having to get an abortion, but if it is such a dreadful thing to go through, why even have sex in the first place? Abstinence is a pretty sure-fire way to never end up with an unwanted kid.

Let's begin with your very first few words... What happens when a man chooses to have sex? The pregnancy result is just as likely, no? It just happens that it's the woman that becomes pregnant, not the man.
The reality is that sex is an enjoyable activity virtually accessible to anyone. That's the main reason people have sex in the first place. Proposing that everyone refrains from sex unless they are fully willing to become parents is, frankly, unrealistic. This means that there will be unplanned, unwanted and undesired pregnancies. These will be unwanted for a myriad of reasons so let's not go into any particular set of them - each case is a case. While some people will go ahead with such unplanned pregnancies, some will do anything in their power to avoid going through with it, even to the point of risking their own lives in the process.

From the cold point of view of "society", a child-bearing age woman represents a greater investment than an unborn fetus. It is thus more desirable to keep that woman around, as healthy as possible, than it is to keep the fetus around and let it grow and become a child. The woman can always (with a few exceptions) have another child, at a time that is more convenient to her and to the future child.

2. Why are we treating fetuses as being on the same level as an infection or something to get rid of? At the end of the day, a fetus is going to become a human. It's not the same as removing a wart or using medicine to get rid of a cold. You are ending a potential life.

That is the way that propagandists have found to try to remove the emotional attachment that binds women to their unborn babies.
I have an issue with that as well.... I find it to be an idiot point to make, but oh well...

I'm sure several members here will attempt to answer these, or even attempt to make me look silly for even asking these questions, but I've still never heard these questions answered to my satisfaction.

My suggestion is to keep asking.

I think the undeniable fact is: abortion is a terrible thing. In a perfect world, it would never have to happen. Then again, in a perfect world, a child would never be brought up unwanted in a home not suitable for animals, let alone humans. In a perfect world, a woman would never have to carry her rapist's child. In a perfect world, a lot of things wouldn't happen, but we don't live in a perfect world.

In my opinion, abortions should be as limited as possible. But that's just the opinion of a cis-gendered straight white male, so to the left, my voice doesn't matter a whole lot.

In my opinion, we should try to make the world such that people wouldn't feel the need to abort.
But, as long as they do feel such a need, we shouldn't penalize them for doing it and we should also provide the necessary framework for it to be done as safely as possible. If we do this, the loss of life (and quality of life) should be minimal.

[jessieban]

You do realize Planned Parrenthood is in mostly black neigborhoods, that african americans make up an overwhelming amount of all abortions, was also invented by Margaret Sanger who was into eugenics and despised the black race. Just saying, and comparing a fetus to a wart is pretty crazy, I think it's kinda morally wrong but still agree with it, how bout though like NY did, stupidly I might add saying you can abort a live baby at birth if you're depressed, they claim health reasons, so you can claim any health reason, are you for 2nd or 3rd term? At that point isn't it a baby?

[Mermaid]

You do realize Planned Parrenthood is in mostly black neigborhoods, that african americans make up an overwhelming amount of all abortions, was also invented by Margaret Sanger who was into eugenics and despised the black race. Just saying, and comparing a fetus to a wart is pretty crazy, I think it's kinda morally wrong but still agree with it, how bout though like NY did, stupidly I might add saying you can abort a live baby at birth if you're depressed, they claim health reasons, so you can claim any health reason, are you for 2nd or 3rd term? At that point isn't it a baby?

You haven't quite hit all the anti-choice talking points. I don't think a single thing you just posted is true.

[jessieban]

Ok so then counter my argument, b/c I don't know if it is true either, I do know that blacks do abort the most, the rest is shit I've heard. Verfiy it's wrong, b/c health can mean anything, u dig?

[Mermaid]

Ok so then counter my argument, b/c I don't know if it is true either, I do know that blacks do abort the most, the rest is shit I've heard. Verfiy it's wrong, b/c health can mean anything, u dig?

Ok 

You do realize Planned Parrenthood is in mostly black neigborhoods, 

Where did you get this factiod? 

that african americans make up an overwhelming amount of all abortions,

False

https://www.guttmacher.org/infographic/2...gJBD_D_BwE

https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/in...gI72PD_BwE

was also invented by Margaret Sanger who was into eugenics and despised the black race.

False. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolit...population

I might add saying you can abort a live baby at birth if you're depressed, they claim health reasons, so you can claim any health reason, are you for 2nd or 3rd term?

Really, really REALLY false. 
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/...n-abortion