Abortion: 10 years as an atheist and I still don't get it

[Amarok]

When that autonomy infringes on someone else’s right to life, the same right to life you acknowledge for a 24weeker outside the womb, which doesn’t magically disappear because they’re inside a womb.

Nobody has the right to live in someone else's body and use their resources .  . The right to life has no right to infringe on a women's right to autonomy . So yes it does disappear in the womb .Location matter to a moral context .

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When that autonomy infringes on someone else’s right to life, the same right to life you acknowledge for a 24weeker outside the womb, which doesn’t magically disappear because they’re  inside a womb.

Cool.  So when I need a Kidney I know to hit you up!

And we won't even have to bother asking

[EgoDeath]

Abortion has absolutely nothing to do with any right to life, and criminalizing it won’t stop them.  We’ve already run the experiment in the real world.  It went very poorly the last time riligious nut jobs used it for a wedge.

Making abortion illegal only guarantees that women will get back-alley abortions instead of seeking out a proper medical facility for one. It doesn't stop abortions from happening, just as making drugs illegal doesn't stop drug use.

[MattB]

You don’t have to get it. There’s nothing wrong with thinking abortion is morally unacceptable. Don’t have one. The problem comes when you try to force your moral views on a woman at the cost of her bodily autonomy.

I agree.

[Prycejosh1987]

I have a problem with how people draft their moral views. In particular, moral rationalization.

I'm a carnivore and I have been my whole life.  As a Christian I thought nothing of it, but when I dropped that stupid religion I began to understand that humans are absolutely brutal to nonhuman animals. The fact that I eat meat does not change this.  I will not rationalize my consumption of meat and conclude it is good or benign simply out of convenience. I acknowledge that it is wrong to eat meat, and then I proceed to eat meat.

My position is that it is wrong to kill anything that is alive. This is my a priori belief. The fact that we must kill things to survive is the secondary issue.  To say that it is morally acceptable to kill living things simply because we must is an appeal to consequences logical fallacy.  If we had Star Trek levels of technology, then it would be more obvious that it is wrong to kill anything.  It is justified to take a life if that living being poses a direct and immediate threat to your own life (at least in my opinion it is), but we should never kill our own offspring. Particularly given that we are mammals and not reptiles.

Now, I understand that the law has nothing to do with morality. For example, adultery simply cannot be illegal, but adultery is definitely morally wrong. You are causing real harm in someone's life by committing adultery. (Open relationships and swinging are not things I'm lumping in with adultery.)

And I understand that as far as the law and even perhaps even morality is concerned, an unborn child is not a person.  It is a human being, but not a person.  A dolphin has more personhood than an unborn human.

I also understand that while it is my opinion that we should not ever sacrifice our offspring to save ourselves, there is no legal obligation for a parent to sacrifice himself/herself to save the child. Nor could this law ever exist.  If, for instance, a mother found herself in an odd situation where she had to choose between her left arm and her five year old son, she is not legally obligated to give up her arm.

So I think at this point I've laid out the case for why abortion should be legal.  A civilian should not be compelled to suffer great bodily harm or risk of death (which birth often is) for anyone else, particularly if that other human being does not even have personhood.

Yet the pro-choice crowd does not seem to stop at legality. Most of them, as far as I understand, think that abortion is morally justifiable. But my understanding is that inasmuch as a man is morally obligated to stand his ground and fight to the death to protect his family (despite having the legal right to flee and save his own life), a woman is morally obligated to protect her child while it is growing inside her.  So please explain to me why abortion is morally acceptable or what I might be missing.

PERSONALLY I WOULDNT AGREE WITH ABORTION UNLESS THE CHILD IS DEFORMED AND MISSING LIMBS. YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE CHILDS LIFE ASWELL. SAYING THAT I WOULDNT ABORT A CHILD UNLESS EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES.

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Abortion has absolutely nothing to do with any right to life, and criminalizing it won’t stop them.  We’ve already run the experiment in the real world.  It went very poorly the last time riligious nut jobs used it for a wedge.

Making abortion illegal only guarantees that women will get back-alley abortions instead of seeking out a proper medical facility for one. It doesn't stop abortions from happening, just as making drugs illegal doesn't stop drug use.

TRUE

[The Architect Of Fate]

PERSONALLY I WOULDNT AGREE WITH ABORTION UNLESS THE CHILD IS DEFORMED AND MISSING LIMBS. 

Why?

YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE CHILDS LIFE ASWELL. SAYING THAT I WOULDNT ABORT A CHILD UNLESS EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES.

No we don't

[Nay_Sayer]

I've yet to hear a rational argument as to why anyone but the woman(For simplicity sakes) in question has the right to tell her what to do with her body.

---

I have a problem with how people draft their moral views. In particular, moral rationalization.

I'm a carnivore and I have been my whole life.  As a Christian I thought nothing of it, but when I dropped that stupid religion I began to understand that humans are absolutely brutal to nonhuman animals. The fact that I eat meat does not change this.  I will not rationalize my consumption of meat and conclude it is good or benign simply out of convenience. I acknowledge that it is wrong to eat meat, and then I proceed to eat meat.

My position is that it is wrong to kill anything that is alive. This is my a priori belief. The fact that we must kill things to survive is the secondary issue.  To say that it is morally acceptable to kill living things simply because we must is an appeal to consequences logical fallacy.  If we had Star Trek levels of technology, then it would be more obvious that it is wrong to kill anything.  It is justified to take a life if that living being poses a direct and immediate threat to your own life (at least in my opinion it is), but we should never kill our own offspring. Particularly given that we are mammals and not reptiles.

Now, I understand that the law has nothing to do with morality. For example, adultery simply cannot be illegal, but adultery is definitely morally wrong. You are causing real harm in someone's life by committing adultery. (Open relationships and swinging are not things I'm lumping in with adultery.)

And I understand that as far as the law and even perhaps even morality is concerned, an unborn child is not a person.  It is a human being, but not a person.  A dolphin has more personhood than an unborn human.

I also understand that while it is my opinion that we should not ever sacrifice our offspring to save ourselves, there is no legal obligation for a parent to sacrifice himself/herself to save the child. Nor could this law ever exist.  If, for instance, a mother found herself in an odd situation where she had to choose between her left arm and her five year old son, she is not legally obligated to give up her arm.

So I think at this point I've laid out the case for why abortion should be legal.  A civilian should not be compelled to suffer great bodily harm or risk of death (which birth often is) for anyone else, particularly if that other human being does not even have personhood.

Yet the pro-choice crowd does not seem to stop at legality. Most of them, as far as I understand, think that abortion is morally justifiable. But my understanding is that inasmuch as a man is morally obligated to stand his ground and fight to the death to protect his family (despite having the legal right to flee and save his own life), a woman is morally obligated to protect her child while it is growing inside her.  So please explain to me why abortion is morally acceptable or what I might be missing.

PERSONALLY I WOULDNT AGREE WITH ABORTION UNLESS THE CHILD IS DEFORMED AND MISSING LIMBS. YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE CHILDS LIFE ASWELL. SAYING THAT I WOULDNT ABORT A CHILD UNLESS EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES.

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Making abortion illegal only guarantees that women will get back-alley abortions instead of seeking out a proper medical facility for one. It doesn't stop abortions from happening, just as making drugs illegal doesn't stop drug use.

TRUE

What if your kid grew up and spoke in nothing but reactionary ill-formed capslocks?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I've yet to hear a rational argument as to why anyone but the woman(For simplicity sakes) in question has the right to tell her what to do with her body.

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PERSONALLY I WOULDNT AGREE WITH ABORTION UNLESS THE CHILD IS DEFORMED AND MISSING LIMBS. YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE CHILDS LIFE ASWELL. SAYING THAT I WOULDNT ABORT A CHILD UNLESS EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES.

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TRUE

What if your kid grew up and spoke in nothing but reactionary ill-formed capslocks?

Abortion in the 128th trimester?

Boru

[Abaddon_ire]

PERSONALLY I WOULDNT AGREE WITH ABORTION UNLESS THE CHILD IS DEFORMED AND MISSING LIMBS. YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE CHILDS LIFE ASWELL. SAYING THAT I WOULDNT ABORT A CHILD UNLESS EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES.

Please define the point at which a single cell becomes a "child".

[The Valkyrie]

I've yet to hear a rational argument as to why anyone but the woman(For simplicity sakes) in question has the right to tell her what to do with her body.

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PERSONALLY I WOULDNT AGREE WITH ABORTION UNLESS THE CHILD IS DEFORMED AND MISSING LIMBS. YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE CHILDS LIFE ASWELL. SAYING THAT I WOULDNT ABORT A CHILD UNLESS EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES.

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TRUE

What if your kid grew up and spoke in nothing but reactionary ill-formed capslocks?

I'm in favour of some post birth abortions.

[no one]

How many unborn fetuses were wiped out in that magic flood, sport?