Aren't there enough unwanted kids in the world as it is?

Some great, thought-provoking responses in this thread!

(June 20, 2019 at 8:14 am)Losty Wrote: If you kill a premature baby, that is absolutely murder.
If you abort a fetus at 24 weeks gestation, that’s your business and anyone else with an opinion should fuck off.

No, if you consider a 24 week old a baby, and taking it's life outside the womb as murder, it's still a baby at 24week inside the womb as well.

Killing a 24 week year old in your womb is just as much my business as killing it outside your womb, or in laboratory, etc.. It's not just your life, it's also the life of the child inside of you. And pretty much all states have defined some point in the pregnancy where it is their business.

I think, as previously said on page 2 of this thread, that it's none of mine or anyone else's business.

I just wonder: Why is it so hard to accept that it should be entirely up to the person carrying the baby to term?

I'm specifically asking the pro-"life" crowds opinion on this.

In my own personal view, it should be something the woman carrying the fetus to decide on her own, since it can't survive without her. In my experience of debating pro-"lifers", the buck stops at giving birth, after which they don't seem to care what happens with an unwanted child, while rarely injecting into how an unwanted child is able to live or pretty much any further impacts down the line - it's always something along the lines of "the unborn child has a right to live", to which I sometimes reply "what about those who are naturally aborted?" or "what about those who would be naturally aborted, but thanks to modern medicine is able to carry to term?" and watch them squirm and give ad-hoc reasons as to why we should save some and let others die.

No, life isn't that simple - it should be something that should be, IMO, decided by the woman carrying it. I'm sure she, given the circumstances, is able to decide for herself and should also have the right to.

And if it is possible, something she can consult a doctor about, which I know is a luxury in the western world, not so easily afforded in the 3rd world. Family planning all the way.

I would also expect the same freedom of choice of what I want to do with my own body without fearing for interference by the state or other individuals trying to restrict my choices and freedom. That's what it really comes down to: Freedom to choose.

Arguing about the limits is stupid. The REALITY is that most abortions occur early. Any abortion that occurs late, which is extremely rare, is done for a fucking good reason.

(June 22, 2019 at 8:01 am)Acrobat Wrote:

(June 20, 2019 at 8:14 am)Losty Wrote: If you kill a premature baby, that is absolutely murder.
If you abort a fetus at 24 weeks gestation, that’s your business and anyone else with an opinion should fuck off.

No, if you consider a 24 week old a baby, and taking it's life outside the womb as murder, it's still a baby at 24week inside the womb as well.

Killing a 24 week year old in your womb is just as much my business as killing it outside your womb, or in laboratory, etc.. It's not just your life, it's also the life of the child inside of you. And pretty much all states have defined some point in the pregnancy where it is their business.

I don’t care about your opinion. Also, states have unjust laws...what’s new? 🤷🏼‍♀️
You have still failed to name a time when someone should not have bodily autonomy

(June 20, 2019 at 5:13 am)Little lunch Wrote: I wonder how many on the left don't find abortion justifiable but are too scared to say it?

Probably less than the many on the right who are gay/atheist/pro-choice but are afraid to say it.

(June 20, 2019 at 5:13 am)Little lunch Wrote: I also think it's impossible to predict regret when it comes to having a child.
When we talk about being too poor to raise a chid properly, we'd still be raising them better than in a third world country.
Should third world countries have mass abortions?

No, because people in third world countries don't have any other option. We do. And would even more so if we placed emphasis on proper sex education and access to healthcare resources for women and men. Also, statistics tell us that poor people tend to stay poor, so while it's beautiful and flowery to postulate that the kid who was aborted could've been a great doctor or whatever, it's improbable, unfortunately. He/she would've probably ended up working a menial job for menial pay and would have likely repeated the same mistakes (or be pressured by the same circumstances) as the previous generation(s).

As grim as the thought may be, I am not going to lose sleep if a young meth addict in Bum Fuck Kentucky gets an abortion at 18. I mean I'm sorry she has to go through that... But... That kid was going to be dealt a shit hand anyway.

However, the fact that people like Losty say shit like be pro-choice or fuck your opinion is part of the problem; we can't even have conversations or ask questions about if certain things should be allowed without being labeled as sexist or bigoted, even if we're pro-choice liberals. Fucking nuts.

(June 22, 2019 at 10:41 am)Losty Wrote: I don’t care about your opinion. Also, states have unjust laws...what’s new? 🤷🏼‍♀️

My moral “opinions”, particularly when shared by the majority of the voting public, is what helps to decide the laws here.

Labeling it unjust doesn’t make it unjust.

Quote:You have still failed to name a time when someone should not have bodily autonomy

When that autonomy infringes on someone else’s right to life, the same right to life you acknowledge for a 24weeker outside the womb, which doesn’t magically disappear because they’re inside a womb.

Abortion has absolutely nothing to do with any right to life, and criminalizing it won’t stop them. We’ve already run the experiment in the real world. It went very poorly the last time riligious nut jobs used it for a wedge.

(June 23, 2019 at 2:56 am)Acrobat Wrote:

Losty Wrote:You have still failed to name a time when someone should not have bodily autonomy

When that autonomy infringes on someone else’s right to life, the same right to life you acknowledge for a 24weeker outside the womb, which doesn’t magically disappear because they’re  inside a womb.

I disagree. I say a being does not have the right to infringe on a person’s bodily autonomy.
To kill a premature baby would be wrong because it poses no threat to anyone. A fetus within the womb of a woman, poses a significant threat not only to that woman’s bodily autonomy and her body itself, but also to her life. It is morally acceptable for her to abort as a self defense measure. Everyone should have the right to value their own life first. You may claim that a fetus has a right to life (I’ll give you that one even though I don’t personally agree), but that fetus’ right to life does not trump the woman’s right to life.

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I’ll add, in real life most women who have abortions after 20 weeks do not want an abortion. Most women who have abortions after 20 weeks went through their pregnancy planning to deliver a baby that they wanted. These women have abortions because it’s their only hope for survival.
In some cases women also have “late” abortions because for whatever reason they’re told their baby will not survive outside the womb anyway and an abortion is a safer procedure than giving birth. This is the best option for them considering if they gave birth their baby would die anyway.
Again, these women do not want to abort. They’re making the best choice they can given their circumstances.

If you want to eliminate the small number of women who choose to have abortions after 20 weeks even though their life is not in danger and their fetus would likely survive outside the womb, there is a simple solution. Provide safe, affordable, easily accessible early abortions for all women.

(June 23, 2019 at 2:56 am)Acrobat Wrote: When that autonomy infringes on someone else’s right to life, the same right to life you acknowledge for a 24weeker outside the womb, which doesn’t magically disappear because they’re  inside a womb.

Cool.  So when I need a Kidney I know to hit you up!