RE: Being cannot come from Non-being
November 20, 2019 at 1:51 pm
(This post was last modified: November 20, 2019 at 2:49 pm by BrianSoddingBoru4.)
Timeless causation
W.L.Craig writes:
God must be causally, but not temporally, prior to the Big Bang. With the creation of the universe, time began, and God entered into time at the moment of creation in virtue of His real relations with the created order. It follows that God must, therefore, be timeless without the universe and temporal with the universe.
The cause of the Big Bang operated at to, that is, simultaneously (or coincidentally{1}) with the Big Bang. Philosophical discussions of causal directionality routinely treat simultaneous causation, the question being how to distinguish A as the cause and B as the effect when these occur together at the same time [Dummett and Flew (1954); Mackie (1966); Suchting (1968-69); Brier (1974), pp. 91-98; Brand (1979)].{2} Even on a mundane level, we regularly experience simultaneous causation;
There must have been a point or transition from a timeless dimension, to a dimension in time. This transition could eventually have happened when God created the physical universe. But if it were so, he would have had to create the reality of heaven, and the heavenly creatures at the same time - since, even in a higher, different, or another dimension, as soon as there is action, movement, motion, there is time, space and matter ( even if in a different higher form with different properties )
We know that God created the heavens and the angels before He created the physical universe. The book of Job describes the angels worshipping God as He was creating the world:
Job 38:4-7
"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone - while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?".
And in Romans 8.29 we read:
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
Ephesians 1.4:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
To me, it seems reasonable to think of following"timeline":
- God existed in a timeless dimension, alone and changeless
- God created heaven, and the heavenly creatures, and moved from a timeless dimension, into time
- God created the physical universe
- This universe will be destroyed and replaced by a new one, which will be eternal
Physical properties have to exist in order for time to exist then time goes back before the Big bang, because, in order for there to be a big bang, there has to be both gravity and material, both of which have physical properties and both of which are manipulated by energy. Therefore, the notion that the creator spoke, or manipulated with energy, everything into existence. Thus, time literally began with the word(manipulation of energy) of God.
That being said, everything is made of energy which existed independently before time and, which under its own power, became an intelligent life form which can manipulate and organize its own energy and create physical material.
In the beginning was the word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Amino acids are the theist's friend and the atheist's nightmare
In order to have a functional protein, you need to have amino acids.
In order to have the amino acids used in life, you have to select the right ones amongst over 500 that occur naturally on earth.
To get functional ones, you need to sort them out between left-handed and right-handed ones ( the homochirality problem). Only left-handed amino acids are used in cells.
There is no selection process known besides the one used in cells by sophisticated enzymes, which produce only left-handed amino acids.
Amino acids used for life have amino groups and carboxyl groups. To form a chain, it is necessary to have the reaction of bifunctional monomers, that is, molecules with two functional groups so they combine with two others. If a unifunctional monomer (with only one functional group) reacts with the end of the chain, the chain can grow no further at this end. If only a small fraction of unifunctional molecules were present, long polymers could not form. But all ‘prebiotic simulation’ experiments produce at least three times more unifunctional molecules than bifunctional molecules.
The useful amino acids would have to be joined and brought together at the same assembly site in enough quantity.
There are four different ways to bond them together by the side chains. if bonded to the wrong side chain, no deal.
The formation of amide bonds without the assistance of enzymes poses a major challenge for theories of the origin of life.
Instructional/specified complex information is required to get the right amino acid sequence which is essential to get the functionality in a vast sequence space ( amongst trillions os possible sequences, rare are the ones that provide function )
Before amino acids would join into a sequence providing functional folding, it would disintegrate if hit by UV radiation.
But even IF that would not be the case, most proteins become only functional, if they are joined into holo-enzymes, where various amino acid chains come together like lock and key.
If that would occur, the tertiary or quaternary structure in most cases would bear no function without the insertion of a co-factor inside the pocket, like retinal in the opsin pocket, forming rhodopsin.
But even IF there would emerge a functional protein on the early earth, by itself, it would be like a piston outside the engine block of an automobile. Many proteins bear only function once they are integrated in an assembly line, producing sophisticated molecular products used in life.
But even IF we had an assembly line of enzymes producing a functional product, what good would there be for that product, if the cell would not know where that product is required in the Cell?
For example, chlorophyll requires the complex biosynthesis process of 17 enzymes, lined up in the right order, each producing the substrate used by the next enzyme. But chlorophyll has no function unless inserted in the light-harvesting antenna complex used in photosynthesis to capture light and funnel it to the reaction center.
But even if that complex, chlorophyll and the LHC would be fully set up, they have no function without all over 30 protein complexes forming photosynthesis, used to make hydrocarbons, essential for all advanced life forms.
Now, let's suppose all this would assemble by a freaky random accident on early earth, there would still be no mechanisms of transition from a prebiotic assembly, to Cell factory synthesis.
Get the picture ?
W.L.Craig writes:
God must be causally, but not temporally, prior to the Big Bang. With the creation of the universe, time began, and God entered into time at the moment of creation in virtue of His real relations with the created order. It follows that God must, therefore, be timeless without the universe and temporal with the universe.
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The cause of the Big Bang operated at to, that is, simultaneously (or coincidentally{1}) with the Big Bang. Philosophical discussions of causal directionality routinely treat simultaneous causation, the question being how to distinguish A as the cause and B as the effect when these occur together at the same time [Dummett and Flew (1954); Mackie (1966); Suchting (1968-69); Brier (1974), pp. 91-98; Brand (1979)].{2} Even on a mundane level, we regularly experience simultaneous causation;
Moderator Notice
Link removed
Link removed
There must have been a point or transition from a timeless dimension, to a dimension in time. This transition could eventually have happened when God created the physical universe. But if it were so, he would have had to create the reality of heaven, and the heavenly creatures at the same time - since, even in a higher, different, or another dimension, as soon as there is action, movement, motion, there is time, space and matter ( even if in a different higher form with different properties )
We know that God created the heavens and the angels before He created the physical universe. The book of Job describes the angels worshipping God as He was creating the world:
Job 38:4-7
"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone - while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?".
And in Romans 8.29 we read:
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
Ephesians 1.4:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
To me, it seems reasonable to think of following"timeline":
- God existed in a timeless dimension, alone and changeless
- God created heaven, and the heavenly creatures, and moved from a timeless dimension, into time
- God created the physical universe
- This universe will be destroyed and replaced by a new one, which will be eternal
Physical properties have to exist in order for time to exist then time goes back before the Big bang, because, in order for there to be a big bang, there has to be both gravity and material, both of which have physical properties and both of which are manipulated by energy. Therefore, the notion that the creator spoke, or manipulated with energy, everything into existence. Thus, time literally began with the word(manipulation of energy) of God.
That being said, everything is made of energy which existed independently before time and, which under its own power, became an intelligent life form which can manipulate and organize its own energy and create physical material.
In the beginning was the word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(November 20, 2019 at 1:21 pm)Sal Wrote: Complexity can easily arise from simplicity, just look at any iterative function, for example the Mandelbrot Set.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandelbrot_set
Amino acids are the theist's friend and the atheist's nightmare
In order to have a functional protein, you need to have amino acids.
In order to have the amino acids used in life, you have to select the right ones amongst over 500 that occur naturally on earth.
To get functional ones, you need to sort them out between left-handed and right-handed ones ( the homochirality problem). Only left-handed amino acids are used in cells.
There is no selection process known besides the one used in cells by sophisticated enzymes, which produce only left-handed amino acids.
Amino acids used for life have amino groups and carboxyl groups. To form a chain, it is necessary to have the reaction of bifunctional monomers, that is, molecules with two functional groups so they combine with two others. If a unifunctional monomer (with only one functional group) reacts with the end of the chain, the chain can grow no further at this end. If only a small fraction of unifunctional molecules were present, long polymers could not form. But all ‘prebiotic simulation’ experiments produce at least three times more unifunctional molecules than bifunctional molecules.
The useful amino acids would have to be joined and brought together at the same assembly site in enough quantity.
There are four different ways to bond them together by the side chains. if bonded to the wrong side chain, no deal.
The formation of amide bonds without the assistance of enzymes poses a major challenge for theories of the origin of life.
Instructional/specified complex information is required to get the right amino acid sequence which is essential to get the functionality in a vast sequence space ( amongst trillions os possible sequences, rare are the ones that provide function )
Before amino acids would join into a sequence providing functional folding, it would disintegrate if hit by UV radiation.
But even IF that would not be the case, most proteins become only functional, if they are joined into holo-enzymes, where various amino acid chains come together like lock and key.
If that would occur, the tertiary or quaternary structure in most cases would bear no function without the insertion of a co-factor inside the pocket, like retinal in the opsin pocket, forming rhodopsin.
But even IF there would emerge a functional protein on the early earth, by itself, it would be like a piston outside the engine block of an automobile. Many proteins bear only function once they are integrated in an assembly line, producing sophisticated molecular products used in life.
But even IF we had an assembly line of enzymes producing a functional product, what good would there be for that product, if the cell would not know where that product is required in the Cell?
For example, chlorophyll requires the complex biosynthesis process of 17 enzymes, lined up in the right order, each producing the substrate used by the next enzyme. But chlorophyll has no function unless inserted in the light-harvesting antenna complex used in photosynthesis to capture light and funnel it to the reaction center.
But even if that complex, chlorophyll and the LHC would be fully set up, they have no function without all over 30 protein complexes forming photosynthesis, used to make hydrocarbons, essential for all advanced life forms.
Now, let's suppose all this would assemble by a freaky random accident on early earth, there would still be no mechanisms of transition from a prebiotic assembly, to Cell factory synthesis.
Get the picture ?
