Protests in Zagreb

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

The idea is to instill or encourage in young minds the passion and drive to analyze poetry.

I think they are trying to do that the very wrong way. Children aren't going to become interested in history because of the nationalist propaganda they were forced to study in schools, if anything, they will not want to study history further, the same goes for poetry. Similarly, the students probably won't become interested in programming if it's taught them the way it's way it's being taught in public schools.

Thanks for telling me what 'Zagreb' means, I never knew that.

You don't know that even know, because I don't know either. That's just my opinion, it's not endorsed by any expert.

The name of my home town translates to 'the middle townlands' and the name of my capital city means (more or less) 'the river mouth nearest the sandbar'.

So, what is your home country? A quick search for a name meaning "sandy river mouth" gives me only "Pinguisibi".

Northern Ireland.  The capital city is Belfast.  In Irish it's Béal Feirste.  Béal means 'rivermouth' and feirste means 'sandbar'. 

I don't think your explanation for 'Zagreb' is correct.

Boru

[FlatAssembler]

I don't think your explanation for 'Zagreb' is correct.

Why do you think it's incorrect?

Northern Ireland.  The capital city is Belfast.  In Irish it's Béal Feirste.  Béal means 'rivermouth' and feirste means 'sandbar'. 

I thought Northern Ireland was a part of UK, rather than a state with a capital city.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I don't think your explanation for 'Zagreb' is correct.

Why do you think it's incorrect?

Northern Ireland.  The capital city is Belfast.  In Irish it's Béal Feirste.  Béal means 'rivermouth' and feirste means 'sandbar'. 

I thought Northern Ireland was a part of UK, rather than a state with a capital city.

Because there isn't anything I've been able to find that supports your explanation.  'Zagreb' appears to mean either 'hill' or 'to dig/scoop out' and is probably Hungarian in origin.  It's almost certainly not Messapian.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK.  It also has a capital city, which is called Belfast.  The same is true of Wales (capital Cardiff) and Scotland (capital Edinburgh).

Boru

[LastPoet]

Why do you think it's incorrect?
I thought Northern Ireland was a part of UK, rather than a state with a capital city.

Because there isn't anything I've been able to find that supports your explanation.  'Zagreb' appears to mean either 'hill' or 'to dig/scoop out' and is probably Hungarian in origin.  It's almost certainly not Messapian.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK.  It also has a capital city, which is called Belfast.  The same is true of Wales (capital Cardiff) and Scotland (capital Edinburgh).

Boru

And Cardiff means sweet love with a sheep.

[FlatAssembler]

Because there isn't anything I've been able to find that supports your explanation. 'Zagreb' appears to mean either 'hill' or 'to dig/scoop out' and is probably Hungarian in origin. It's almost certainly not Messapian.

I find those etymologies with Croatian for "hill" or Croatian for "to scoop" or Croatian for "to dig" to be very questionable. The Croatian word for "hill" is "brijeg" ('j' is always pronounced as 'y' in "yes" in Croatian), ultimately from German "Berg". Change from "ije" to "e" is typical of the Zagreb dialect, but 'b' and 'g' switching places would be very unusual. The Croatian for "scoop (water from a well)" is "grabiti", and a change from 'a' to 'e' would be unexpected. As far as I know, there is no evidence that "grebati" ever meant "to dig", it means "to scratch", and it almost certainly comes from the same root as Greek for "to engrave/write", γραφειν. The usual word for "to dig" in Croatian is, and has always been, "kopati", it probably comes from the same root as Greek for "to dig", σκαπτειν.
But perhaps the best argument for rejecting any sort of Croatian etymology for "Zagreb" is the fact that the earliest attested name for Zagreb in Latin is "Zagrabiensem". The letter 'z' didn't stand for 'z' in Medieval Latin, the sound 'z' was denoted with 'j' or 's': the Medieval Latin name for Zadar was written as "Jadera" (possibly influenced by probably unrelated ancient name "Iader"), the Medieval Latin name for Bizovac (the name in the local dialect being "Bizovci", 'c' being pronounced 'ts') was "Bisofzy", and the name of the river "Zala" in Hungary was almost always written "Sala" in Medieval Latin documents. The 'z' in "Zagrabiensem", in all likelihood, stood for the 'dz' sound, which existed in Old Croatian, but changed to 'z' in Modern Croatian. The "Za-" in "Zagreb" doesn't come from the Croatian prefix "za-".
As for it coming from Hungarian, I see one reason to assume that it doesn't: Hungarian has vowel harmony, and Hungarian name for Zagreb is "Zagrab", presumably because "Zagreb" wouldn't be a phonotactically valid word in Hungarian. So, doesn't it seem much more likely that the Croatian name "Zagreb" is more original, considering that a change from "Zagreb" to "Zagrab" would be regular in Hungarian, but a change from "Zagrab" to "Zagreb" would be irregular in Croatian?

It also has a capital city, which is called Belfast.

Then "capital city" means something different in English than what I thought it meant.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Because there isn't anything I've been able to find that supports your explanation.  'Zagreb' appears to mean either 'hill' or 'to dig/scoop out' and is probably Hungarian in origin.  It's almost certainly not Messapian.

I find those etymologies with Croatian for "hill" or Croatian for "to scoop" or Croatian for "to dig" to be very questionable. The Croatian word for "hill" is "brijeg" ('j' is always pronounced as 'y' in "yes" in Croatian), ultimately from German "Berg". Change from "ije" to "e" is typical of the Zagreb dialect, but 'b' and 'g' switching places would be very unusual. The Croatian for "scoop (water from a well)" is "grabiti", and a change from 'a' to 'e' would be unexpected. As far as I know, there is no evidence that "grebati" ever meant "to dig", it means "to scratch", and it almost certainly comes from the same root as Greek for "to engrave/write", γραφειν. The usual word for "to dig" in Croatian is, and has always been, "kopati", it probably comes from the same root as Greek for "to dig", σκαπτειν.
But perhaps the best argument for rejecting any sort of Croatian etymology for "Zagreb" is the fact that the earliest attested name for Zagreb in Latin is "Zagrabiensem". The letter 'z' didn't stand for 'z' in Medieval Latin, the sound 'z' was denoted with 'j' or 's': the Medieval Latin name for Zadar was written as "Jadera" (possibly influenced by probably unrelated ancient name "Iader"), the Medieval Latin name for Bizovac (the name in the local dialect being "Bizovci", 'c' being pronounced 'ts') was "Bisofzy", and the name of the river "Zala" in Hungary was almost always written "Sala" in Medieval Latin documents. The 'z' in "Zagrabiensem", in all likelihood, stood for the 'dz' sound, which existed in Old Croatian, but changed to 'z' in Modern Croatian. The "Za-" in "Zagreb" doesn't come from the Croatian prefix "za-".
As for it coming from Hungarian, I see one reason to assume that it doesn't: Hungarian has vowel harmony, and Hungarian name for Zagreb is "Zagrab", presumably because "Zagreb" wouldn't be a phonotactically valid word in Hungarian. So, doesn't it seem much more likely that the Croatian name "Zagreb" is more original, considering that a change from "Zagreb" to "Zagrab" would be regular in Hungarian, but a change from "Zagrab" to "Zagreb" would be irregular in Croatian?

It also has a capital city, which is called Belfast.

Then "capital city" means something different in English than what I thought it meant.

It means a governmental and administrative centre.  Does it mean something else in Croatish?

Boru

[FlatAssembler]

I find those etymologies with Croatian for "hill" or Croatian for "to scoop" or Croatian for "to dig" to be very questionable. The Croatian word for "hill" is "brijeg" ('j' is always pronounced as 'y' in "yes" in Croatian), ultimately from German "Berg". Change from "ije" to "e" is typical of the Zagreb dialect, but 'b' and 'g' switching places would be very unusual. The Croatian for "scoop (water from a well)" is "grabiti", and a change from 'a' to 'e' would be unexpected. As far as I know, there is no evidence that "grebati" ever meant "to dig", it means "to scratch", and it almost certainly comes from the same root as Greek for "to engrave/write", γραφειν. The usual word for "to dig" in Croatian is, and has always been, "kopati", it probably comes from the same root as Greek for "to dig", σκαπτειν.
But perhaps the best argument for rejecting any sort of Croatian etymology for "Zagreb" is the fact that the earliest attested name for Zagreb in Latin is "Zagrabiensem". The letter 'z' didn't stand for 'z' in Medieval Latin, the sound 'z' was denoted with 'j' or 's': the Medieval Latin name for Zadar was written as "Jadera" (possibly influenced by probably unrelated ancient name "Iader"), the Medieval Latin name for Bizovac (the name in the local dialect being "Bizovci", 'c' being pronounced 'ts') was "Bisofzy", and the name of the river "Zala" in Hungary was almost always written "Sala" in Medieval Latin documents. The 'z' in "Zagrabiensem", in all likelihood, stood for the 'dz' sound, which existed in Old Croatian, but changed to 'z' in Modern Croatian. The "Za-" in "Zagreb" doesn't come from the Croatian prefix "za-".
As for it coming from Hungarian, I see one reason to assume that it doesn't: Hungarian has vowel harmony, and Hungarian name for Zagreb is "Zagrab", presumably because "Zagreb" wouldn't be a phonotactically valid word in Hungarian. So, doesn't it seem much more likely that the Croatian name "Zagreb" is more original, considering that a change from "Zagreb" to "Zagrab" would be regular in Hungarian, but a change from "Zagrab" to "Zagreb" would be irregular in Croatian?
Then "capital city" means something different in English than what I thought it meant.

It means a governmental and administrative centre.  Does it mean something else in Croatish?

Boru

Osijek and Split are governmental and administrative centres as much as Zagreb is, yet they are never called capital cities ("glavni grad"). OK, Split is sometimes called that way by the Slobodna Dalmacija ("Independent Dalmatia") movement.
BTW, what do you think about the Dalmatian Independence movement? And what about Istria Independence movement? I think that their ideas of reviving Dalmatian and Istriot languages are hardly achievable even if it weren't for the Zagreb government preventing them, and that the attempt to do that would cause a lot of economic damage. OK, maybe reviving Istriot is possible (many people there speak Italian, which is related to Istriot, and Istriot, unlike Dalmatian has a few remaining native speakers), but reviving Dalmatian (that died out completely in the late 19th century, and isn't actually well-attested, and in a region in which the vast majority of the people speak Croatian, which is only very distantly related to Dalmatian) certainly isn't.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

It means a governmental and administrative centre.  Does it mean something else in Croatish?

Boru

Osijek and Split are governmental and administrative centres as much as Zagreb is, yet they are never called capital cities ("glavni grad"). OK, Split is sometimes called that way by the Slobodna Dalmacija ("Independent Dalmatia") movement.
BTW, what do you think about the Dalmatian Independence movement? And what about Istria Independence movement? I think that their ideas of reviving Dalmatian and Istriot languages are hardly achievable even if it weren't for the Zagreb government preventing them, and that the attempt to do that would cause a lot of economic damage. OK, maybe reviving Istriot is possible (many people there speak Italian, which is related to Istriot, and Istriot, unlike Dalmatian has a few remaining native speakers), but reviving Dalmatian (that died out completely in the late 19th century, and isn't actually well-attested, and in a region in which the vast majority of the people speak Croatian, which is only very distantly related to Dalmatian) certainly isn't.

I don't think anything about those movements because I don't know anything about those movements. 

Boru

[FlatAssembler]

Osijek and Split are governmental and administrative centres as much as Zagreb is, yet they are never called capital cities ("glavni grad"). OK, Split is sometimes called that way by the Slobodna Dalmacija ("Independent Dalmatia") movement.
BTW, what do you think about the Dalmatian Independence movement? And what about Istria Independence movement? I think that their ideas of reviving Dalmatian and Istriot languages are hardly achievable even if it weren't for the Zagreb government preventing them, and that the attempt to do that would cause a lot of economic damage. OK, maybe reviving Istriot is possible (many people there speak Italian, which is related to Istriot, and Istriot, unlike Dalmatian has a few remaining native speakers), but reviving Dalmatian (that died out completely in the late 19th century, and isn't actually well-attested, and in a region in which the vast majority of the people speak Croatian, which is only very distantly related to Dalmatian) certainly isn't.

I don't think anything about those movements because I don't know anything about those movements. 

Boru

And why then do you think you know something about the etymology of the name "Zagreb"? It takes years of studying to have an informed opinion about that, don't you think?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I don't think anything about those movements because I don't know anything about those movements. 

Boru

And why then do you think you know something about the etymology of the name "Zagreb"? It takes years of studying to have an informed opinion about that, don't you think?

Not really, no.  I don't see what a lack of knowledge regarding current separatist movements in Croatia has to with historical linguistics. That's like telling someone who doesn't know how to fix a car that they've got no business having an opinion on lyric poetry.

Several sources say the name is likely to be either German or Hungarian in origin (your rather tedious attempts to show otherwise notwithstanding).  For example, Messapian has been an extinct language since the first century, so it's unlikely to be that.

Wikipedia references are your friend.

Boru