Question about a specific claimed miracle

[Mister Agenda]

If you don't take non-religious people seriously, why did you come to an atheist message board to ask about your alleged miracle?

Boru

I definitely did not say that I don't take non-religious people seriously, as I am also not religious. If you read what I wrote, I said that I do not take religious people"like you" seriously. Snarky people and disrespectful comments that have not been thought out do not deserve to go without a comment. I hope I have made myself clear and do not have to explain myself any further

Boy did you come to the wrong place. Hey everybody, suspend your sense of humor until this guy leaves! After all the time he's put in here earning our respect, it's the least we can do.

---

Here's how you get pretty much any forum to be extra snarky towards you: walk in and tell them not be snarky towards you. Who doesn't know that by now?

[Simon Moon]

Greetings! I am currently at a crossroads in my life regarding my beliefs in the supernatural. I do not really want to go into it at this point. It is too messy to hash all out over a forum thread. Anyway, I have listened to a lot of Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss lately as well as the Atheist Experience. At this point, I am not really a proponent of Atheism or a specific religion. I am still a member of the Orthodox Christian Church.

I came across some videos online regarding a purported miracle that is claimed to take place every year on Holy Saturday before Easter. Basically the Orthodox Bishop of Jerusalem goes into the claimed tomb of Jesus. Before hand he is searched by an Israeli police officer for any lighters, matches, etc. He then emerges from the tomb with a lit candle that is said not to burn the skin for the first 20 or so minutes after the bishop emerges. Supposedly scientific research has been performed and the fire's temperature has been taken and it burns cool.

I have a video that has a pilgrim in Jerusalem holding the fire on his skin and running it through his beard. Please take a look at the video and respond with your thoughts. How is this individual's beard not even slightly harmed by the fire? Is there a scientific explanation for any of this? I have heard people claim that it could be white phosphorus that spontaneously combusts, but that would still involve heat.

Thank you in advance for any responses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kZu87tyqJ4

Here is also a video that discusses the supposed scientific study of this alleged miracle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgEL7kiMu40

The level of what is considered a miracle certainly has dropped drastically over the centuries.

Parting the Red Sea. pillars of fire, walking on water, living in a fish for 3 days, raising from the dead. Hell, even a century ago, there was the 'miracle of the sun' at Fatima, Portugal.

And now, all a god can muster is giving a Bishop the power to light a candle, and the fire allegedly not harming the Bishop. Yahweh certainly must be losing his powers.

I can guarantee that any magician with even a modicum of skills can reproduce this trick. I just google "self lighting candle magic trick" and returned pages of results.

[Pat Mustard]

Greetings! I am currently at a crossroads in my life regarding my beliefs in the supernatural. I do not really want to go into it at this point. It is too messy to hash all out over a forum thread. Anyway, I have listened to a lot of Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss lately as well as the Atheist Experience. At this point, I am not really a proponent of Atheism or a specific religion. I am still a member of the Orthodox Christian Church.

I came across some videos online regarding a purported miracle that is claimed to take place every year on Holy Saturday before Easter. Basically the Orthodox Bishop of Jerusalem goes into the claimed tomb of Jesus. Before hand he is searched by an Israeli police officer for any lighters, matches, etc. He then emerges from the tomb with a lit candle that is said not to burn the skin for the first 20 or so minutes after the bishop emerges. Supposedly scientific research has been performed and the fire's temperature has been taken and it burns cool.

I have a video that has a pilgrim in Jerusalem holding the fire on his skin and running it through his beard. Please take a look at the video and respond with your thoughts. How is this individual's beard not even slightly harmed by the fire? Is there a scientific explanation for any of this? I have heard people claim that it could be white phosphorus that spontaneously combusts, but that would still involve heat.

Thank you in advance for any responses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kZu87tyqJ4

Here is also a video that discusses the supposed scientific study of this alleged miracle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgEL7kiMu40

The level of what is considered a miracle certainly has dropped drastically over the centuries.

Parting the Red Sea. pillars of fire, walking on water, living in a fish for 3 days, raising from the dead. Hell, even a century ago, there was the 'miracle of the sun' at Fatima, Portugal.

And now, all a god can muster is giving a Bishop the power to light a candle, and the fire allegedly not harming the Bishop. Yahweh certainly must be losing his powers.

I can guarantee that any magician with even a modicum of skills can reproduce this trick. I just google "self lighting candle magic trick" and returned pages of results.

Well Fatima wasn't that impressive either, given that it was "the miracle of looking at the sun so long you damaged your eyes". That's what the "dancing" was.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Hume pretty well settled this almost three centuries ago.  Which is more likely - that there’s some trickery involved, or that God spends time magically lighting candles that don’t burn beards?

Boru

[Abaddon_ire]

Hello. I see that you have stated that your not religious but claim to be a member of a church. Hmm.......

To be fair, I’m still a member of the Catholic Church (you have to be excommunicated to lose your membership) and I don’t think my atheism is in serious doubt.

Boru

Not true. My sister formally resigned from the RCC within their rules. Anyone can do so. It is enshrined in canon law. If you wish to do so you can. no excommunication required.

However, there is a dirty little secret involved. The RCC clergy will intentionally make it as difficult as they can. Why? Do they want to keep you in? Not at all. They care not a damn whether you lapse or not, only that you continue to be counted as a catholic. Keeps the plausible numbers up and all that.

Personally, I have not bothered. I care not if the cross dressing pedos classify me as a Jedi Knight.

However, my atheist sister lives in Germany and there something like 4% of your salary is taken at source for the church. No choice, it just happens. It is the default. It is an opt out system. Newly arrived brand spanking and shiny, she thought that was merely the tax regime of the country.

So, of course, she had that "Wait just a fucking minute" moment. 

Right, I'm an atheist so I need not be paying this extra crap, how do I stop it? She thought. Little did she know what was ahead. Of course, little did the clergy know what was ahead of them either. It takes a lot to rile my sister, but when she gets a head of steam up, watch out. A steamroller happens.

The point is that excommunication is not required, but boy do those bastards make you jump through pointless hoops.

[Deesse23]

However, my atheist sister lives in Germany and there something like 4% of your salary is taken at source for the church. No choice, it just happens. It is the default. It is an opt out system. Newly arrived brand spanking and shiny, she thought that was merely the tax regime of the country.

Its rather 2%, and opting out in the local townhall takes you like 10mins, which i did just last year.

[Abaddon_ire]

However, my atheist sister lives in Germany and there something like 4% of your salary is taken at source for the church. No choice, it just happens. It is the default. It is an opt out system. Newly arrived brand spanking and shiny, she thought that was merely the tax regime of the country.

Its rather 2%, and opting out in the local townhall takes you like 10mins, which i did just last year.

I couldn't recall the figure. When my sister did it she had an in person sit down interview with the local bishop. It was over 20 years ago, though. What rules apply now? I don't know.

[The Grand Nudger]

That's nothing. The Plutonium of Hierapolis was built around a gate to hell. Persons observing the ritual anywhere near the handrail would be unaffected, but livestock prodded past the threshold would be killed, gruesomely, by the assumed power of the god of death.

[Deesse23]

Its rather 2%, and opting out in the local townhall takes you like 10mins, which i did just last year.

I couldn't recall the figure. When my sister did it she had an in person sit down interview with the local bishop. It was over 20 years ago, though. What rules apply now? I don't know.

Opting out of paying church tax can be done in the townhall. You are also automatically removed from any statistics as being member of the according church (protestant or catholic). You are officially not a member of the church anymore after having done this. Bothering to go up to your bishop and what not is your own business, and afaik completely unnecessary. The church has no say in you officially leaving.

[OakTree500]

I would say check out this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Fire#...opposition

In his book, the journalist Dimitris Alikakos presents an interview with the skeuophylax Archbishop Isidoros of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, in which the former admits that the "Sleepless Candle", which himself puts into the Church of the Holy Sepulchre during the morning of the Holy Saturday, is ignited by him with a lighter[1]:75[30][31].

The former (1984-1988) skeuophylax Archbishop Nikiforos makes the same acknowledgement, except that he was using matches[1]:89

In the same book, Archbishop Gerason Theofanis states that the Holy Fire does not light up in a miraculous, but in a natural way, and it is then blessed by the Patriarch. He adds: "we deceive the believers letting them believe that it is a miracle. This is unacceptable, and does not reflect well on us"[1]:86.

In addition, the Metropolitan Bishop Kornilios of Petras, surrogate of the Jerusalem Patriarchate in 2001, confirmed an older interview, saying that he also had ignited the candles of the Holy Fire with a natural candle, and he described in full detail what he saw when he entered the Church of the Holy Sepulchre[1]:101-106. Lastly, in his book, the journalist mentions the chronicle of the deletion of the word "miracle" from the official website of the Patriarchate in 23/6/2018, with the commandment of the Patriarch Theofilos III[1]:29-47.

So, doesn't look like a "Miracle" at all, just some sort of "trick" that is done annually to bring in the crowds.

The problem with this sort of thing is, if it happened like they say it does:

During this time, blue light is said to emit within Jesus Christ's tomb, rising from the marble slab covering the stone bed believed to be that upon which Jesus' body is believed to have been placed for burial. The marble slab is now in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in the Old City of Jerusalem. The light is believed to form a column of fire, from which candles are lit.

That would be NUTS to capture on film, which is something we've had for some times now. People could claim it was faked, but live video from various sources would be a great way to confirm if it happened.

From the above, turns out it's just a trick to deceive gullible people into believing