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Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
#11
RE: Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
(March 1, 2020 at 10:57 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: God is powerful enough to telepathically pass his inerrant word through time and space so a person can write it all down flawlessly, but is unable to guide the mind of a translator to get the translation right! Makes perfect sense. Oh, and you should believe it because there are some vague passages in there that can be stretched to sort of resemble things tangentially related to science.

God just couldn't telepathically convey its message to all? God needs a better router.
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#12
RE: Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
(April 18, 2020 at 8:13 am)LastPoet Wrote:
(March 1, 2020 at 10:57 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: God is powerful enough to telepathically pass his inerrant word through time and space so a person can write it all down flawlessly, but is unable to guide the mind of a translator to get the translation right! Makes perfect sense. Oh, and you should believe it because there are some vague passages in there that can be stretched to sort of resemble things tangentially related to science.

God just couldn't telepathically convey its message to all? God needs a better router.

Well, yeah, there is that, but considering the world as it presents to us now...

Accepted fact(By pretty much everyone): God has NOT contacted everyone telepathically

Accepted fact(By most religious folks): God has inspired a book and you can read its many translations

Accepted fact(By some religious folks): You can only access the TRUTH™ if you read the source material in the original language
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#13
RE: Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
Has nothing to do with truth. It's the continuation of an ethnocentric value system.

It would be like swearing that you could only read wiki properly in english. The claim is absurd on it's face.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#14
RE: Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
(April 18, 2020 at 1:00 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Has nothing to do with truth.  It's the continuation of an ethnocentric value system.

It would be like swearing that you could only read wiki properly in english.  The claim is absurd on it's face.

Right, that's my point. The idea that you can only obtain the truth from the original manuscript written in the original language just doesn't jive with the idea of an all powerful, all knowing God. He would be able to get assure the translations were correct. He could also just have a heart to heart with everyone on the planet but that clearly isn't happening. The "clear" and "obvious" truth of religion has also not been conveyed using the translations so the post hoc rationalization is to say that only the original has a valid message. I would argue that even during the days when the original was all that there was, there was plenty of dissent so...

bullshit is bullshit.
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#15
RE: Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
Ahem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satani...ontroversy
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#16
RE: Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
(March 1, 2020 at 7:14 pm)chimp3 Wrote: OK! I own a copy by Abdullah Yusef Ali with English translation. If I accept that the original is expressed accurately in all it's copies, why should I accept the original is true?

As a speaker of Arabic -both slang and formal, being a native Arab-, the translations are accurate. I understand English quite well and I didn't find notable "reforging" if any; the Arabic text is always the same -to the letter- but translations differ in small words but mainly the meaning is intact just since the source is intact.

You can see an example of that in this verse for example:

https://quran.com/2/256?translations=


to translate it myself:

لا
No

اكراه
Compulsion

في
In

الدين
Religion -an implicit reference to Islam-

قد
Had

تبين
became obvious

الرشد
The guidance

من
From

الغي
The wrong

ف
So

من
Whoever

يكفر
Disbelieves

ب
In

الطاغوت
The false God

و
and

يؤمن
Believes

ب
In

الله
Allah

فقد
Has

استمسك
Grasped

ب
In

العروة
The grip

الوثقى
The trustworthy

لا
No

انفصام
No break

لها
In it

و
and

الله
Allah

سميع
Hearing

عليم
Knowing
--------------------------

Most translations translate with minor differences like in the word "العروة"; while I chose "the grip" as its translation maybe other translators would choose the word "the handle".

Of course you can see that this no reason to start a sectarian civil war, but anyways the Muslims who say the Quran is not obvious to justify engaging in sectarian war are just extremists wanting interest for spilling blood.

Anyways, this is my opinion about the translation; reading for many translators would shed the light on the verse you would like to understand and read.
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#17
RE: Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
(April 19, 2020 at 2:11 am)WinterHold Wrote:
(March 1, 2020 at 7:14 pm)chimp3 Wrote: OK! I own a copy by Abdullah Yusef Ali with English translation. If I accept that the original is expressed accurately in all it's copies, why should I accept the original is true?

As a speaker of Arabic -both slang and formal, being a native Arab-, the translations are accurate. I understand English quite well and I didn't find notable "reforging" if any; the Arabic text is always the same -to the letter- but translations differ in small words but mainly the meaning is intact just since the source is intact.

You can see an example of that in this verse for example:

https://quran.com/2/256?translations=


to translate it myself:

لا
No

اكراه
Compulsion

في
In

الدين
Religion -an implicit reference to Islam-

قد
Had

تبين
became obvious

الرشد
The guidance

من
From

الغي
The wrong

ف
So

من
Whoever

يكفر
Disbelieves

ب
In

الطاغوت
The false God

و
and

يؤمن
Believes

ب
In

الله
Allah

فقد
Has

استمسك
Grasped

ب
In

العروة
The grip

الوثقى
The trustworthy

لا
No

انفصام
No break

لها
In it

و
and

الله
Allah

سميع
Hearing

عليم
Knowing
--------------------------

Most translations translate with minor differences like in the word "العروة"; while I chose "the grip" as its translation maybe other translators would choose the word "the handle".

Of course you can see that this no reason to start a sectarian civil war, but anyways the Muslims who say the Quran is not obvious to justify engaging in sectarian war are just extremists wanting interest for spilling blood.

Anyways, this is my opinion about the translation; reading for many translators would shed the light on the verse you would like to understand and read.

Your "god" is so weak, that it can't convey a single message to all humans. Oh, I know, just simpletons like you can understand it, in your simple narrow minds. Hilarious
Reply
#18
RE: Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
(April 19, 2020 at 4:56 am)LastPoet Wrote: Your "god" is so weak, that it can't convey a single message to all humans. Oh, I know, just simpletons like you can understand it, in your simple narrow minds. Hilarious
Nobody will enter hell before being asked if they heard about God's verses or not:

Quote:Sura 39, The Quran:
https://quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en#...rans=en_sh

( 71 )   And those who disbelieved will be driven to Hell in groups until, when they reach it, its gates are opened and its keepers will say, "Did there not come to you messengers from yourselves, reciting to you the verses of your Lord and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say, "Yes, but the word of punishment has come into effect upon the disbelievers.


So no worries. Nobody will enter hell before being asked this question, as verse 71  of Sura 39 say,
Reply
#19
RE: Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
Extremists tend to say that magic book -is- obvious enough to justify sectarian war, Atlas, lol.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#20
RE: Muslims: If the Koran is Unaltered...
(April 19, 2020 at 6:15 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Extremists tend to say that magic book -is- obvious enough to justify sectarian war, Atlas, lol.

That's why they are called "extremists".
Reply



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