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Talking to mormons
#21
RE: Talking to mormons
(April 11, 2020 at 3:41 am)ignoramus Wrote: Welcome.
Out of curiosity, what did you hope to accomplish when questioning a mormon.

We play similar games with Christians and Muslims here all day.
The flavour of sky fairy doesn't really change anything, does it.

They're all claims. All of them. Our word against theirs. But the onus of proof is on them.
And then the circular reasoning starts, and down the shitter it all goes from there....

Most religious people don't understand the difference between attacking the person and attacking the belief.
Everything becomes a personal attack and they respond accordingly.
Watching cat videos are so much more entertaining.

Wait a minute - when you claim there is no God, the onus of proof shifts to you, right?  
There is no God is just as much unprovable as there is.
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#22
RE: Talking to mormons
... nothing we haven't seen a thousand times before.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman
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#23
RE: Talking to mormons
(October 7, 2020 at 6:44 pm)runewell Wrote:
(April 11, 2020 at 3:41 am)ignoramus Wrote: Welcome.
Out of curiosity, what did you hope to accomplish when questioning a mormon.

We play similar games with Christians and Muslims here all day.
The flavour of sky fairy doesn't really change anything, does it.

They're all claims. All of them. Our word against theirs. But the onus of proof is on them.
And then the circular reasoning starts, and down the shitter it all goes from there....

Most religious people don't understand the difference between attacking the person and attacking the belief.
Everything becomes a personal attack and they respond accordingly.
Watching cat videos are so much more entertaining.

Wait a minute - when you claim there is no God, the onus of proof shifts to you, right?  
There is no God is just as much unprovable as there is.

That is true. Saying, "There is no God" shoulders a burden of proof.
Reply
#24
RE: Talking to mormons
(October 7, 2020 at 6:44 pm)runewell Wrote:
(April 11, 2020 at 3:41 am)ignoramus Wrote: Welcome.
Out of curiosity, what did you hope to accomplish when questioning a mormon.

We play similar games with Christians and Muslims here all day.
The flavour of sky fairy doesn't really change anything, does it.

They're all claims. All of them. Our word against theirs. But the onus of proof is on them.
And then the circular reasoning starts, and down the shitter it all goes from there....

Most religious people don't understand the difference between attacking the person and attacking the belief.
Everything becomes a personal attack and they respond accordingly.
Watching cat videos are so much more entertaining.

Wait a minute - when you claim there is no God, the onus of proof shifts to you, right?  
There is no God is just as much unprovable as there is.

One does not have to say, "There is no god," to be an atheist. All that is necessary is not to be convinced by claims that gods do exist.
"The world is my country; all of humanity are my brethren; and to do good deeds is my religion." (Thomas Paine)
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#25
RE: Talking to mormons
(October 7, 2020 at 11:33 pm)Gwaithmir Wrote:
(October 7, 2020 at 6:44 pm)runewell Wrote: Wait a minute - when you claim there is no God, the onus of proof shifts to you, right?  
There is no God is just as much unprovable as there is.

One does not have to say, "There is no god," to be an atheist. All that is necessary is not to be convinced by claims that gods do exist.

So if that's all that is necessary - then you're an agnostic?
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#26
RE: Talking to mormons
Quote:So if that's all that is necessary - then you're an agnostic?
Nope Atheism is about belief Agnosticism is about knowledge
“The sun from far gives life. But get close to it and it burns anything down to ashes”

[Image: flag-ukraine_1f1fa-1f1e6.png]  Heart [Image: canada-google.png]        

 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
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#27
RE: Talking to mormons
(October 8, 2020 at 5:26 pm)runewell Wrote:
(October 7, 2020 at 11:33 pm)Gwaithmir Wrote: One does not have to say, "There is no god," to be an atheist. All that is necessary is not to be convinced by claims that gods do exist.

So if that's all that is necessary - then you're an agnostic?

Gnosticism and anosticism is about knowledge.
I have seen multiple times when one person ask another:
"Do you BELIEVE that there are gods?"
Person 2 replies:
"I do not know."

But he isn't being asked
"Do you KNOW that there are gods?"

Belief just means opinion.
"Is it your OPINION that there are gods?"

If you have no opinion, then you are a non-believer and so, you are an atheist because that is the default position.
If your opinion is that there are no gods at all, then you are an atheist in this case also.
If you are a christian, then you are an atheist with respect to other gods. However, I tend to call christians and such people theists.

Do I believe that my watch exists? YES
Do I know that my watch exists? YES
Yes, it is possible to know and believe that something exists.


The other combinations are
1. Do I believe that my watch exists? NO Do I know that my watch exists? YES
2. Do I believe that my watch exists? YES Do I know that my watch exists? NO
3. Do I believe that my watch exists? NO Do I know that my watch exists? NO
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#28
RE: Talking to mormons
(October 9, 2020 at 11:20 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Gnosticism and anosticism is about knowledge.

Belief just means opinion.
"Is it your OPINION that there are gods?"

If you have no opinion, then you are a non-believer and so, you are an atheist because that is the default position.

This was a discussion point back on the Amazon boards.  Some person was adamant that atheism was NOT the default position, because if it was, the word "atheist" had no meaning. 

This person claimed that an atheist must explicitly consider and reject a particular god concept to be an atheist with respect to that god.  Atheism means "rejecting a god claim" to this person.  Therefore, a baby cannot be an atheist, or the word has no meaning.  Likewise a plant cannot be an atheist.

One problem with this position is that it is a slippery slope towards requiring atheists to shoulder a burden of proof.  "By what standard to you reject a god claim -- what evidence did you use?".  The other is the common-sense use of the word to be an answer to the question:

"Do you believe in any gods?".  This is a question about belief, not about evidence, or knowledge, or burden of proof.  Obviously is can't be asked of babies or plants.  People know if they have a belief or not (or could be in a state of confusion about their belief, which is not the same as agnostic).

If asked "how strongly do you believe", we could get into questions about evidence or reasons for believing or not. Then we get into gnostic/agnostic, or the Dawkins scale of 0 to 7 for belief.
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#29
RE: Talking to mormons
(October 7, 2020 at 6:44 pm)runewell Wrote: Wait a minute - when you claim there is no God, the onus of proof shifts to you, right?  
There is no God is just as much unprovable as there is.

I agree wholeheartedly.  Each statement shares identical burden and is equal with respect to it's provability.  

The proposition that your god does not exist has met that burden.  This is how I know that your god does not exist.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#30
RE: Talking to mormons
(October 9, 2020 at 12:39 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(October 7, 2020 at 6:44 pm)runewell Wrote: Wait a minute - when you claim there is no God, the onus of proof shifts to you, right?  
There is no God is just as much unprovable as there is.

I agree wholeheartedly.  Each statement shares identical burden and is equal with respect to it's provability.  

The proposition that your god does not exist has met that burden.  This is how I know that your god does not exist.

Which god does Runewell believe in?

Science blows away certain religions and along with it, the god.
For example, we know that the jewish flavor of religions aren’t true because we know that the Universe, Earth, Sun, Moon and so on are not 6000 y old.
Some christians claim that Genesis is not real and not to be taken literally but why? Are they just trying to hold on to the religion of their ancestors because they are comfortable, because they are familiar with it?
Well, Homer is hanging on to his few strands of hair.
We know that there was no first man and woman. Not enough genetic variability. We know that for other animals, it did not start with a single male and female either. Not enough genetic variability.
Many religions make the claim that some god made directly the first male and female and this and that. Science blows them away.
I’ve never seen any religion match up with what science, the evidence, tells us.

The big question is, what is a god? Some people say it is love, others say they are aliens.
It seems that gods are many things to many people.

This is why I call myself and ignostic. I don’t know what a god is. Mostly, I say to people I am an atheist since people are familiar with that term.
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