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[Serious] What God's justification for eternal torment?
#91
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(August 22, 2020 at 9:38 am)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:
(August 22, 2020 at 9:27 am)Gwaithmir Wrote: I asked what point you were trying to make via the quote?

You said we know by empirical observations that the earth resides in a heliocentric system. I wanted to show that this isn't the case and empirical observations can support either model. Or as your expanded quote explained, we choose one model because it's easier to work with.

The same applies to questions of God.

Wrong! Empirical observations support the heliocentric system. This is why you've abbreviated the Hawkins quote. You might as well argue that the earth is flat. The heliocentric model is not only easier to use, it's the correct one, as science has confirmed long ago.

Mainstream Christianity has defined God's attributes, and those attributes do not correspond to reality. Neither do they pass rational scrutiny. God, as defined by mainstream Christianity, does not exist.
"The world is my country; all of humanity are my brethren; and to do good deeds is my religion." (Thomas Paine)
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#92
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(August 23, 2020 at 9:45 am)Gwaithmir Wrote: This is why you've abbreviated the Hawkins quote.

Nothing was abbreviated; quotations are by their very nature excerpts. And your own "full" quote supports my position:

"The real advantage of the Copernican system is that the mathematics is much simpler in the frame of reference in which the sun is at rest."
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#93
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(August 19, 2020 at 12:11 am)snowtracks Wrote:
(August 18, 2020 at 4:13 pm)SuicideCommando01 Wrote: And millions of religious people think hell is a good thing and justified, which goes to show that these are not sane people.
God exists and everyone knows it.

I don't know that god exists in the generic extent*. I have been provided with no evidence for its existence.

*I can be confident that the god of the bible, however, doesn't exist. There is plenty of evidence in the bible to prove that.
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#94
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(August 22, 2020 at 4:11 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:
(August 22, 2020 at 2:37 pm)Smaug Wrote: Thus it makes sence to say that Earth goes about the Sun and not the other way around.

When something makes sense, you are adding subjective value to it. There is nothing objective about something making sense; it is dependant on your particular brain, and it tends to be uncontrollable and seemingly arbitrary. You could be stuck learning a math problem, fall asleep, and in the morning everything suddenly makes sense.

The epicycles of a geocentric universe make sense, for example, so try to substitute "making sense" with a more measurable claim: the heliocentric model makes the least number of predictions, etc.

It is difficult to divorce the science from the scientist, but we can at least be mindful of where one ends and the other begins.

If you'd like to be more exact you can say that when considering motion of the planets of Solar system taking the system's barycenter or the Sun's center of mass as a reference point allows to obtain their equations of motion in the most simple form.

Heliocentric model was a very big step forward from the epicycles and earlier astronomical concepts. Astronomers were making observations for centuries but in the geocentric coordinates they were too confusing to make any general assumptions about the laws of motion. Adoption of Heliocentrism and Kepler's study of Martian orbit paved way for Newton's Theory of Gravitation.
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#95
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(August 24, 2020 at 12:25 pm)Smaug Wrote: If you'd like to be more exact you can say that when considering motion of the planets of Solar system taking the system's barycenter or the Sun's center of mass as a reference point allows to obtain their equations of motion in the most simple form.

Heliocentric model was a very big step forward from the epicycles and earlier astronomical concepts. Astronomers were making observations for centuries but in the geocentric coordinates they were too confusing to make any general assumptions about the laws of motion. Adoption of Heliocentrism and Kepler's study of Martian orbit paved way for Newton's Theory of Gravitation.

Yup, I agree thats a much better way to frame things.

As long as we remember that the simplest form does not mean the correct form by default. The universe is not at its simplest form. The heliocentric model struggled to catch on at first because it was less accurate than the epicycles of the geocentric model, due to oversimplification. The model assumed that orbits were perfect circles, rather than the slightly more complicated elliptical orbits.

Simplicity is first and foremost a cognitive preference. In fact, there was a recent psychology paper that really makes one aware of the strange preference of scientists to describe things in terms of dichotomies, binaries, and dual-processes. Clearly simplicity is a reflection of how we think and not a reflection of nature itself:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29571664/
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#96
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
Might be why we imagine simple wizards in place of complex natural interactions.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#97
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
I remember when an Orthodox Christian friend of mine was going on about the baroque elegance of geocentric calculations and how simplicity doesn't mean correct. I was like, 'but gravity!'.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#98
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(August 24, 2020 at 8:23 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:
(August 24, 2020 at 12:25 pm)Smaug Wrote: If you'd like to be more exact you can say that when considering motion of the planets of Solar system taking the system's barycenter or the Sun's center of mass as a reference point allows to obtain their equations of motion in the most simple form.

Heliocentric model was a very big step forward from the epicycles and earlier astronomical concepts. Astronomers were making observations for centuries but in the geocentric coordinates they were too confusing to make any general assumptions about the laws of motion. Adoption of Heliocentrism and Kepler's study of Martian orbit paved way for Newton's Theory of Gravitation.

Yup, I agree thats a much better way to frame things.

As long as we remember that the simplest form does not mean the correct form by default. The universe is not at its simplest form. The heliocentric model struggled to catch on at first because it was less accurate than the epicycles of the geocentric model, due to oversimplification. The model assumed that orbits were perfect circles, rather than the slightly more complicated elliptical orbits.

Simplicity is first and foremost a cognitive preference. In fact, there was a recent psychology paper that really makes one aware of the strange preference of scientists to describe things in terms of dichotomies, binaries, and dual-processes. Clearly simplicity is a reflection of how we think and not a reflection of nature itself:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29571664/

If we talk mathematics complexity in many cases is not subjective but rather is a measurable thing, as well as level of precision. I have to note that complexity and precision are not the same thing and are not always interconnected. Depending on the choice of coordinates you can obtain different expressions of a given motion or differential equations thereof. While being rigorously identical, these expressions may take on very different appearance. If we talk about human perception our given equations may be as long as several dozens of symbols in one set of coordinates while in other coordinates they may take up several hundred symbols. Also not all expressions representing a given motion are equally optimal for processing by a digital computer. This means that complexity can be formalized. Although it by itself is a rather complicated topic.

There's nothing strange in the preferences you mention. Decomposition is one of the main methods to solve a complex problem. Indeed, that seems to be the way the brain works. Binary logic is the simpliest of them all so finding an explanation that goes by if/then/else scheme is a universally desirable thing. If it stays the test, of course.

Finding the most simple set of coordinates for a given problem is very an important task in physics.

P. S. from a psychological point of view it can be argued that epicycles were in fact a more 'simple' way to solve the problem because they did not require to think 'out of the box' and check radically new hypotheses (which is generally harder than to increase complexity straight on). So the process of finding a simple solution is not always simple by itself.

I guess that epicycli-sh approximation of the planets' motion in geocentric coordinats can actually be made to a required level of precision in a manner of Fourier series but it's only became possible now when we have developed calculus. Of course it bears no sence other than to play around with math.

(August 25, 2020 at 11:16 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: I remember when an Orthodox Christian friend of mine was going on about the baroque elegance of geocentric calculations and how simplicity doesn't mean correct. I was like, 'but gravity!'.

Did he mean the epicycles? I wonder where he found actual calculations for those... those aren't things you just casually google search, I guess. I mean the actual numerical tables or calculations, not the general explanations. This seems to be the stuff you can only find in specialized history books at best.
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#99
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(August 13, 2020 at 10:30 pm)SuicideCommando01 Wrote: OK listen, I get that God has rules and all, but when it comes to punishment, why does God need to punish us with LITERAL FIRE? Why BURN BILLIONS of people as punishment for "not accepting my son" ? and Why for ETERNITY? That has to be the most fucked up thing imaginable, that to me is NOT of justice, NOT of love and certainty NOT righteous, if anything, its barbaric, its savagery, its inhumane, and most importantly, its EVIL. And don't say "No they actually do die a second time in the lake of fire" because that "holy" book of yours is filled with contradictions. God cannot deal with sinners in a civilized, and humane matter? Why not the punishment for not accepting god or Jesus be: You die in this life, thats it, no heaven.

the bible says hell is forever, the torment is forever and the only one it says who will burn forever is satan and his inner circle. the rest of us are cast into hell to be destroyed. if you read what the bible says..  plus i have my own experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9on1cGF5YaY&t=80s
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
Hey! I know that slime trail!
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