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RE: If god can't lie, does that mean he can't do everything?
August 26, 2020 at 9:46 pm
(August 26, 2020 at 1:40 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: (August 26, 2020 at 12:42 pm)Grandizer Wrote: The basic answer is he can't be anything but what he is. As God is considered to be complete in goodness, then as lying is a deviation from goodness, then God cannot lie as God would then have to be incomplete in goodness.
Or something like that. I'm sure I got the wording wrong somewhere there.
Either way, not much of a challenge for Christians. They'll happily concede God can't do everything because in their view that doesn't take away from his omnipotence.
If god is omnipotent, can he not just make lying into goodness? Can not make himself incomplete and not goodness?
By omnipotent, you're thinking someone/something that can unconditionally do anything. But I'm pretty sure Christians (well, those who are well versed in the theologies at least) see it as perfection [in act or whatever]. God deviating from the truth (which could be seen as inextricable with goodness) would render God imperfect. It would be "out-of-God" for God to do something so imperfect.
Of course one could point to Bible verses where God doesn't appear to be truthful, but Christians have prepared answers for this sort of objection as well.
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RE: If god can't lie, does that mean he can't do everything?
August 27, 2020 at 6:55 am
Well, God can lie (if you presume that Bible was written by God) because Bible, Koran and Mahabharata are filled with lies, so what's the point of asking the question?
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: If god can't lie, does that mean he can't do everything?
August 27, 2020 at 9:41 am
In the Bible, God admits to sending deceitful spirits to mislead prophets.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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RE: If god can't lie, does that mean he can't do everything?
August 27, 2020 at 11:05 am
(This post was last modified: August 27, 2020 at 11:09 am by The Grand Nudger.)
If gods power extended to moral value - then he could make lying good and lie. OFC, if gods power extended to moral value, he could make himself bad and lie. The second one seems like a more direct route.
.....but ...
IF omnipotence doesn't include the power to create or overturn necessary truths, then our hypothetical good god could no more make lying good than it could lie.
It's a rare commitment to logic and objectivity within the qualitatively subjective and nihilistic mass of christian belief regarding moral value and possibility. If we approach it consistently, then we can say that a person who believes in those kinds of morals, and that kind of god, can't believe that magic book got it right on that count. Someone scribbled that into the margins. It's a convenient position, especially considering the question at hand. Asserting that god cannot lie, we then expunge any lie we notice god telling as the lie of another.
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RE: If god can't lie, does that mean he can't do everything?
September 9, 2020 at 11:20 am
(This post was last modified: September 9, 2020 at 11:22 am by Drich.)
(August 26, 2020 at 10:33 am)Eleven Wrote: I wish this question was my own, but I saw it on FB.
The question is still valid, however.
God is the alpha and Omega which means beginning and end of all things. this means nothing is greater. do not confuse this with an omni max God as an omni max is bound to the laws of being a supreme being and thus subject to paradox. alpha and omega God is far more powerful and is not bound by paradox because God's will his desire supersedes his strength. meaning of God wanted to create a rock so big he could not lift it it means he could create such a rock, however if he did not want to create such a object then he couldn't do it. this is what absolute strength and power looks like. If God's will says he is not a liar, so then he can not lie. if his will says he can, then God can.. that's the true nature of an alpha and omega.. basically God does what ever the Eff God wants to do. as he is the first authority and the last rule. no other rules laws or principles control or guide him outside his own will and authority.
(August 27, 2020 at 11:05 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: If gods power extended to moral value - then he could make lying good and lie. OFC, if gods power extended to moral value, he could make himself bad and lie. The second one seems like a more direct route.
.....but ...
IF omnipotence doesn't include the power to create or overturn necessary truths, then our hypothetical good god could no more make lying good than it could lie.
It's a rare commitment to logic and objectivity within the qualitatively subjective and nihilistic mass of christian belief regarding moral value and possibility. If we approach it consistently, then we can say that a person who believes in those kinds of morals, and that kind of god, can't believe that magic book got it right on that count. Someone scribbled that into the margins. It's a convenient position, especially considering the question at hand. Asserting that god cannot lie, we then expunge any lie we notice god telling as the lie of another.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jz1TjCphXE
ah... no.
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RE: If god can't lie, does that mean he can't do everything?
September 9, 2020 at 12:14 pm
(September 9, 2020 at 11:20 am)Drich Wrote: (August 26, 2020 at 10:33 am)Eleven Wrote: I wish this question was my own, but I saw it on FB.
The question is still valid, however.
God is the alpha and Omega which means beginning and end of all things. this means nothing is greater. do not confuse this with an omni max God as an omni max is bound to the laws of being a supreme being and thus subject to paradox. alpha and omega God is far more powerful and is not bound by paradox because God's will his desire supersedes his strength. meaning of God wanted to create a rock so big he could not lift it it means he could create such a rock, however if he did not want to create such a object then he couldn't do it. this is what absolute strength and power looks like. If God's will says he is not a liar, so then he can not lie. if his will says he can, then God can.. that's the true nature of an alpha and omega.. basically God does what ever the Eff God wants to do. as he is the first authority and the last rule. no other rules laws or principles control or guide him outside his own will and authority.
Okay. How do you know that your god hasn't lied to you?
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RE: If god can't lie, does that mean he can't do everything?
September 9, 2020 at 12:19 pm
Interesting. All the religious think their "God" always tells the truth...
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman
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RE: If god can't lie, does that mean he can't do everything?
September 9, 2020 at 7:16 pm
(September 9, 2020 at 11:20 am)Drich Wrote: (August 26, 2020 at 10:33 am)Eleven Wrote: I wish this question was my own, but I saw it on FB.
The question is still valid, however.
God is the alpha and Omega which means beginning and end of all things. this means nothing is greater. do not confuse this with an omni max God as an omni max is bound to the laws of being a supreme being and thus subject to paradox. alpha and omega God is far more powerful and is not bound by paradox because God's will his desire supersedes his strength. meaning of God wanted to create a rock so big he could not lift it it means he could create such a rock, however if he did not want to create such a object then he couldn't do it. this is what absolute strength and power looks like. If God's will says he is not a liar, so then he can not lie. if his will says he can, then God can.. that's the true nature of an alpha and omega.. basically God does what ever the Eff God wants to do. as he is the first authority and the last rule. no other rules laws or principles control or guide him outside his own will and authority.
(August 27, 2020 at 11:05 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: If gods power extended to moral value - then he could make lying good and lie. OFC, if gods power extended to moral value, he could make himself bad and lie. The second one seems like a more direct route.
.....but ...
IF omnipotence doesn't include the power to create or overturn necessary truths, then our hypothetical good god could no more make lying good than it could lie.
It's a rare commitment to logic and objectivity within the qualitatively subjective and nihilistic mass of christian belief regarding moral value and possibility. If we approach it consistently, then we can say that a person who believes in those kinds of morals, and that kind of god, can't believe that magic book got it right on that count. Someone scribbled that into the margins. It's a convenient position, especially considering the question at hand. Asserting that god cannot lie, we then expunge any lie we notice god telling as the lie of another.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jz1TjCphXE
ah... no.
Where have you been? Prison?
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RE: If god can't lie, does that mean he can't do everything?
September 9, 2020 at 7:20 pm
(August 26, 2020 at 10:50 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: There's lots of things humans can do that God supposedly can't: lie, make mistakes, learn, grow as a person, feel guilt or shame...it's probably a very long list.
...exist...
Dying to live, living to die.
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RE: If god can't lie, does that mean he can't do everything?
September 9, 2020 at 7:25 pm
(August 26, 2020 at 12:42 pm)Grandizer Wrote: The basic answer is he can't be anything but what he is. As God is considered to be complete in goodness, then as lying is a deviation from goodness, then God cannot lie as God would then have to be incomplete in goodness.
Or something like that. I'm sure I got the wording wrong somewhere there.
Either way, not much of a challenge for Christians. They'll happily concede God can't do everything because in their view that doesn't take away from his omnipotence.
If memory serves, Aquinas expressed it as God can't do anything that is against his nature. It was a pretty tidy position for Aquinas to take since, for the purposes of the argument, he defined what God's nature was.
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‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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