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Faith is Feelings
#41
RE: Faith is Feelings
(February 21, 2021 at 7:13 pm)snowtracks Wrote:
(February 19, 2021 at 12:03 pm)Five Wrote: I was thinking about it recently, trying to section out why certain people join certain religions or believe in certain Gods. And I was thinking about the personal morality people accept and define for themselves.

Why join one religion versus another? I think it's because you personally don't agree with those other religions definition of God and morality. What if they were true? Is truth only the commandments you would reasonably tolerate from a God? Even within your own accepted religion, there are things that "God" could ask you to do that you would tell him "no" instead of obeying. If God pulled an Abraham and Isaac on you, would you do as he asked and kill your child? 

 If you said "yes" to that question...that's a different discussion. But if you said no, how can faith be defined as anything other than your own subjective morality? 

Would it change things if God himself came down and told you to do stuff directly? Could you trust a supernatural being that asked you to do something that you felt was morally wrong? What proof would you need to know that this supernatural visitor was God and not something evil?
Perceiving God directly through the 5 senses would only result in a debate on the issue. 

Scenario:  If a physical entity with the appearance of personhood were to materialize on the White House lawn and while saying “I’m God” (loud enough that it was recorded) levitated a foot above the ground, would that constitute proof that God is not hidden? As the Secret Service approached, this entity asked one agent to place his hand on the entity’s shoulder which the agent did, thus making the entity disappear. Later, in the briefing, the agent said the shoulder garment felt ‘velvety’, anything else you noticed? ‘Yes, as we approached this thing, there was an aroma of fruit, the closer we got the more pungent it became, much like orange blossoms’.

This is an interesting scenario. Assuming it was televised live and not just a story reported by Secret Service members; and the tape and site was investigated by relevant experts for signs of trickery and no shenanigans were uncovered, it would not be strong evidence that the entity was God, but it would be the strongest evidence we've ever had of beings capable of superhuman feats. It would be debatable but it would also gain a lot of conversions; although this guy sounds more like a manifestation of Vishnu that the Christian God. It wouldn't convince me, but it would convince a lot of people and could be brought up any time someone asked for evidence of the supernatural. Seems kind of small potatoes for a being that should be able to spell out 'Hey, I'm real--the God of Abraham' in galaxies; which btw would convince me.

Of course, to answer Five's question, you should indicate if there was anything this being that appeared at the WH could ask you to do which you would refuse.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#42
RE: Faith is Feelings
(February 21, 2021 at 7:13 pm)snowtracks Wrote: Scenario:  If a physical entity with the appearance of personhood were to materialize on the White House lawn and while saying “I’m God” (loud enough that it was recorded) levitated a foot above the ground, would that constitute proof that God is not hidden? 

It doesn't prove that it's God. It could be some alien with advanced technology and a lot of knowledge of our earthly customs. Guaranteed, a huge number, if not a majority, of believers worldwide would be skeptical of, or reject outright, any such claim. 

Or, it could be a god, and just not yours, or any other worshiped here. 

The ultimate truth of faith is that there really can't be an ultimate truth to it. There is, necessarily, a level (and it's different for everyone) where any alleged evidence of some god being, especially the invisible, silent ones who only communicate to people who are already predisposed to accept such a premise in the first place, cannot be shared with anyone else and subject to any kind of objective examination, on any level. It's something you believe, and to you, it is undeniable truth, a fact like any other we can all accept, but this is one you accept because either (a) you really just haven't thought about it that much and accept it as fact without dispute thanks to whatever assortment of factors drives people to act that way, or (b), because you have thought a lot about it, have weighed your experiences with other people's claims and the evidence as you understand and accept it, and have arrived at the conclusion that a creator god exists and has a hotline right into your brain because you opened your heart to him and did the things in the book more or less correctly. 

But, this belief does not exist outside of your own head, it's unique to you. Another believer may have arrived at, essentially, the same conclusions, but for different reasons, by way of different experiences and evidence, and as the result of their own upbringing and social programming. Their entire concept of belief, for all its similarities with yours, will be influenced by completely personal factors. And, there's no way to truly know who's correct, or if either of you are correct. Your belief is, at the very core, an assumption you are making that cannot reliably be substantiated by anyone else, only approximated.
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#43
RE: Faith is Feelings
(February 21, 2021 at 7:13 pm)snowtracks Wrote:
(February 19, 2021 at 12:03 pm)Five Wrote: I was thinking about it recently, trying to section out why certain people join certain religions or believe in certain Gods. And I was thinking about the personal morality people accept and define for themselves.

Why join one religion versus another? I think it's because you personally don't agree with those other religions definition of God and morality. What if they were true? Is truth only the commandments you would reasonably tolerate from a God? Even within your own accepted religion, there are things that "God" could ask you to do that you would tell him "no" instead of obeying. If God pulled an Abraham and Isaac on you, would you do as he asked and kill your child? 

 If you said "yes" to that question...that's a different discussion. But if you said no, how can faith be defined as anything other than your own subjective morality? 

Would it change things if God himself came down and told you to do stuff directly? Could you trust a supernatural being that asked you to do something that you felt was morally wrong? What proof would you need to know that this supernatural visitor was God and not something evil?
Perceiving God directly through the 5 senses would only result in a debate on the issue. 

Scenario:  If a physical entity with the appearance of personhood were to materialize on the White House lawn and while saying “I’m God” (loud enough that it was recorded) levitated a foot above the ground, would that constitute proof that God is not hidden? As the Secret Service approached, this entity asked one agent to place his hand on the entity’s shoulder which the agent did, thus making the entity disappear. Later, in the briefing, the agent said the shoulder garment felt ‘velvety’, anything else you noticed? ‘Yes, as we approached this thing, there was an aroma of fruit, the closer we got the more pungent it became, much like orange blossoms’.
Bold mine - verbatim from 2017.  10 Questions Biblical Literalists Cannot Honestly Answer (atheistforums.org)

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 “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.” ~Albert Einstein                                                 
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#44
RE: Faith is Feelings
(February 21, 2021 at 7:30 pm)Five Wrote:
(February 21, 2021 at 7:13 pm)snowtracks Wrote: Perceiving God directly through the 5 senses would only result in a debate on the issue. 

I don't know how to interpret this. Is this a list of things that you would need as proof that a God appearing before you was good versus evil?

I'm asking you, as a Christian, is there anything your God could command you to do that you would say "No/I can't do that"?

Yes- oops sorry didn’t know it was a necro
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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#45
RE: Faith is Feelings
LOL, oh god it would be horrible if you were also Snowtracks. Like your shittier alter ego. Wink
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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