Chauvin Murder Trial

[Rev. Rye]

Scientific racists are certain they can't be racists because scientific racism is just The Truth™, and how can the truth be racist. I always wonder how that happens. A person is just...normal....and then they hear the bigoted bill nye say numbers at them and bingo bongo, racists?

And numbers that are only part of the story, and they don’t question whether or not they were actually representative (like perhaps white people aren’t as scrutinized by the police as heavily as black people, skewing the numbers), or, if they actually are, why this is so and maybe we might be able to fix that.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Scientific racists are certain they can't be racists because scientific racism is just The Truth™, and how can the truth be racist.  I always wonder how that happens.  A person is just...normal....and then they hear the bigoted bill nye say numbers at them and bingo bongo, racists?

But ... But... It's science 

[The Grand Nudger]

Maybe people just reflexively search for an enlightened centrism, and this sort of shit is the halfway mark between being a full blown race warrior and being, well, not that.

[Irreligious Atheist]

That may be the case, that stats in and of themselves aren't racist (at least assuming they're accurate and brought up in good faith.) The key question is why you're bringing it up and what you think you have to say about it. For instance, here's a statistic: "The average drunk driver drives under the influence more than 80 times before being arrested the first time." So, why am I bringing this stat up? Well, putting aside the fact that it was on the first result of my googling "random stat" (and was, indeed, the first in a list of 50), it would be reasonable to assume that, if this was being brought up in a conversation where it was actually relevant, it'd be easy to infer that I think the cops who deal with drunk drivers really need to up their game.

And as for the 13/50 (or 3/50, in your case) statistic, it's brought up quite a lot. So, 3% of the population commits 50% of the homicides. This time, the question raised is, in practice, not so much what to do but why? (Though depending on what their answer for "why" is, their answer for what to do about it is pretty easy to predict.) Ultimately, there's really only two answers for why: 1) America dropped the ball that fucking bad when they tried to re-integrate black people into society after slavery, and 2) black people (or, specifically, black males between the ages of 13 and 35) are just naturally like that. And while some people bring up the statistic and argue why #1 is the true answer, and Vaush has a pretty well-argued (if off the cuff) video about why this state of affairs happened to be:




But when it comes to bringing up the stat, voices like Vaush are very much the minority. When it's usually brought up, it's by people who think black people are just born that way. It's so well-known that it's become a fucking meme. And that meme is why the ADL has a page on it. While the Know Your Meme seems to focus more on the counter-meme about how ubiquitous the statistic is, you know, stuff like this,

It also includes a couple examples of the right-wingers who use it. And I'll post two to represent two different approaches to fixing the problem I see whenever I see right-wingers bringing it up.

The first approach: just do nothing. Maybe bring more cops in and police it even harder, but otherwise just do nothing and let the problem keep festering:

(Note, I don't know if this is a photoshop or if this is an actual thing Ben Shapiro did, but given how the mainstream right and the far-right have triangulated in recent years, I can't prove anything either way.)

Or the proactive approach, one that simply isn't pretty:


For the record, IA, I don't think it's likely you're going to endorse the "Destroy the 13% of the population" variety, but frankly, the version I think you've been endorsing (even if you do adjust it to point out that it's specifically black men of a certain age group and not the entire race) doesn't do much good and I think it helps embolden the latter. And just for the record, the ones I picked are the Milder ones.

I've seen that Vaush video. I watch a lot of his stuff. I thought it would've been obvious why I brought it up looking at the post I was responding to. Black areas are policed a lot more because of higher violent crime in those areas. This is the case because of poverty, the fathers being out of the home, growing up with bad influences and being initiated into gangs at a young age. Shit schools, and feeling like you have no other choice but to resort to crime. I don't blame people for being born into a bad situation and I want the government to help them rise up. Implement the UBI. Invest in the community and schools. These are useful reparations. You need a national heathcare system or at least Medicare for All.

The ADL may consider it a 'hate symbol', but I highly doubt the forum rules would since I doubt I'll be getting banned for posting a stat which is a supposed hate symbol. I've seen talk here that all communities should be policed the same, but that doesn't seem to be what black people want. 80 percent of black people want either the same amount of police presence in their communities or even more. Of course, there probably are many times where blacks are stopped unnecessarily by police, and I feel for them when it comes to this. It's not fair when people are pulled over like this for no reason so often. I would say interactions with police are higher than they need to be for blacks, but the likelihood of getting killed by the police, whether you're black or white, is pretty similar when you take into account police interactions.

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Scientific racists are certain they can't be racists because scientific racism is just The Truth™, and how can the truth be racist.  I always wonder how that happens.  A person is just...normal....and then they hear the bigoted bill nye say numbers at them and bingo bongo, racists?

And numbers that are only part of the story, and they don’t question whether or not they were actually representative (like perhaps white people aren’t as scrutinized by the police as heavily as black people, skewing the numbers), or, if they actually are, why this is so and maybe we might be able to fix that.

In terms of things like drugs and that, yes, there would be way more white people in jail for drugs if they were policed as heavily. There never should have been a drug war in the first place, though. At the same time, in places like Detroit, half of the murders go unsolved, so we can never really get completely accurate numbers on one side or the other. We just have to go with what we've got because that's the best we can really do.

[brewer]

So no real objection to the source other then snark

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Not to mention the author clearly doesn't align with IA

https://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/202...lence.html

The ADL called Ilhan Omar anti-semetic when she said nothing close to anti-semetic. The ADL has no credibility whatsoever.

I didn't get a response from you other than a kudos.

The article does not support your statement "Blacks and whites actually get killed by police at a very similar rate". Her paper is predictive, not quantitative (note #4).

[Irreligious Atheist]

The ADL called Ilhan Omar anti-semetic when she said nothing close to anti-semetic. The ADL has no credibility whatsoever.

I didn't get a response from you other than a kudos.

The article does not support your statement "Blacks and whites actually get killed by police at a very similar rate". Her paper is predictive, not quantitative (note #4).

I will find another link when I get the time.

[Rev. Rye]

Maybe people just reflexively search for an enlightened centrism, and this sort of shit is the halfway mark between being a full blown race warrior and being, well, not that.

And maybe instead of just looking for a middle point between the two main points of view, perhaps looking at which side's arguments actually correspond with reality. Because when you try the former approach, you end up like Tim Pool.

Note: I wanted to be able to find the video where Timba's ranting about how if Biden wins, Antifa's going to find out you've said some bad things and get your mom fired, maybe add a sarcastic "100% Sane. 0% Insane." remark to it. But I could only find it on Twitter and I don't know how to link to Twitter videos on here. And I get the feeling that a lot of people wouldn't get the reference to Kyle Odom (and his assurance that he was entirely sane, despite being convinced that [among other things] he was being regularly raped by aliens who invented Elmo to normalise their upcoming takeover of Earth, and no, I'm not kidding about that, let alone the fact that Last Podcast on the Left's episode about it made the phrase into a running gag.)

So, I'll just point you to one of Jose's many videos about Tim Pool and how trying for Enlightened Centrism essentially made him a Useful Idiot for the far Right.



(And they're just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Timmy-boy. This doesn't even include the points where Tim finally decided to officially vote for Trump because of Kyle Rittenhouse, or the fact that his response to Trump supporters storming the Capitol was basically to jizz his pants over and over again.)

[The Architect Of Fate]

I will find another link when I get the time.

And Brewer will tear it apart.

[Brian37]

Nobody in this thread has ever claimed white people never die by the hands of police. But there is a huge ratio disparity as to risk of death when interacting with police. Once as a teen I had a full size replica toy cap gun, no re noses required at the time back in the 80s. Cops were called  because someone thought I was firing a real gun. Cop jumped out of his car pointed his gun at me, BUT waited for me to explain it was a toy and didn't shoot me. Another time in my early 20s I got pulled over for speeding, made the mistake of mouthing off, but made it to the police station alive and released unharmed. The disorderly was dropped, but I still had to pay the traffic ticket. They didn't even pull a gun on me during that. 

Sandra Bland however, died in police custody over a minor traffic pull over she confronted the cop verbally and got arrested for it. Just this weekend a black Lt military EMT was pulled over for an improper mounting of his temorary tag. That Lt was smart in putting his hands out of the window. He shouldn't have had to though considering it was not a fellony stop. Point is, that Lt would have been more likely to be shot than I would have under similar circumstances.

So when you say whites get roughed up, and or shot sometimes, it is still nowhere near the rate blacks have to worry about.

Blacks and whites actually get killed by police at a very similar rate compared to interactions with police. All those extra interactions cause bullshit like them being way more likely than whites to go to jail for drug possession while the races use at a similar rate, but at the same time, poor black areas are obviously policed more because that's where the gang activity is.

You bring up Tamir Rice. The sad thing about that is that there actually are 12 year old kids walking around with real guns, in gangs. That's the screwed up reality. Instead of literal reparations (although UBI may not be such a bad idea, for all races though obviously), poor black people need useful reparations like major investment in the community and schools so 12 year olds hopefully aren't walking around with guns.

I know very well how cops can be pricks. When I was 12, a cop threatened to arrest me if I didn't snitch and tell him about a fight I had witnessed. I said go ahead and do it. No snitching. There is no evidence of any racism in what happened to George Floyd. You and the media are just making that connection because you want it to be true. You don't know it to be true. If it was another white guy killed or mentally challenged guy killed, you wouldn't be calling it Antebellum bullshit, and we can't specifically say that race had anything to do with Floyd dying, or for that matter we can't say that racism would have anything to do with Derek Chauvin being found not guilty. There are black people on the jury. Dude took a bunch of drugs. When you do that and you end up dying by a not as obvious means as a gunshot, you're not going to necessarily get the benefit of the doubt. Beyond reasonable doubt is a high standard to clear.

NOT THE FUCKING POINT. I am saying that risk of injury, or higher rate of more severe charge even without injury, far more affects minorities than whites.

[Mister Agenda]

I remember finding the conclucsions of the book The Bell Curve persuasive. Then I looked a little deeper and it fell apart. I had a similar experience with relating race and crime statistics. Now I skip the part where I find it persuasive and move straight to considering it racist propaganda until proven otherwise.