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Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
#31
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
You're not a serious christian because you defend your ignorance and silly lies by claiming to be christlike.

Get right with jesus. I don't have to believe in god to know that your faith is bankrupt.
It's bad for the rest of the world when americans are paid so little they can only afford chocolate mined by child slaves and clothes made in overseas sweatshops. - Robyn Pennacchia
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#32
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
There is only ONE victim. Jesus


But, no.... we know better! And that was the original sin. Not eating a fig, or an apple. Turning away was the sin.
And we continue to turn away...I'm guilty! We're all guilty! Guilty in the womb! No one human, is innocent of sin.

And, God in His abundant Mercy, gave us a way to come back to Him. And reconcile Himself to us, through His Son, Jesus.
And if anyone says they would rather watch their own child suffer over themselves.... I'd like to know it?

In short; He paid the price for putting the choice in front of us. And He went through death, to break the curse: Which
"was" for sinners only. Death has lost it's sting, through innocent blood being spilled.

Now, we can "choose to believe", or not. We still have a choice! That's the amazing thing about God's Mercy!!

"Let he, who has understanding, hear!" "Fear not those who kill the body. But fear the ONE who can destroy both the body & soul..."

Alas, no amount of explaining will convince the unbeliever. True "understanding" only happens to those
who sincerely search for God. He leaves no searcher unanswered. That is the promise.
Quis ut Deus?
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#33
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
Oh look, it's raining crap.
[Image: Fenrir-sign.jpg]
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#34
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 2, 2021 at 10:08 am)ronedee Wrote: There is only ONE victim. Jesus


But, no.... we know better! And that was the original sin. Not eating a fig, or an apple. Turning away was the sin.
And we continue to turn away...I'm guilty! We're all guilty! Guilty in the womb! No one human, is innocent of sin.

And, God in His abundant Mercy, gave us a way to come back to Him. And reconcile Himself to us, through His Son, Jesus.
And if anyone says they would rather watch their own child suffer over themselves.... I'd like to know it?

In short; He paid the price for putting the choice in front of us. And He went through death, to break the curse: Which
"was" for sinners only. Death has lost it's sting, through innocent blood being spilled.

Now, we can "choose to believe", or not. We still have a choice! That's the amazing thing about God's Mercy!!

"Let he, who has understanding, hear!" "Fear not those who kill the body. But fear the ONE who can destroy both the body & soul..."

Alas, no amount of explaining will convince the unbeliever. True "understanding" only happens to those
who sincerely search for God. He leaves no searcher unanswered. That is the promise.

Thanks for that...slow clap.
       I am the storm.                                                             
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#35
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 2, 2021 at 10:08 am)ronedee Wrote: ...No one human, is innocent of sin.

Sin is an imaginary crime against an imaginary victim.

Saying "I'm sorry, God; yes, I accept Jesus" does nothing to resolve a problem caused in the real world against a real victim. You must apologize and make restitution for what you've done, and the person you harmed is fully within their rights to refuse to forgive you.

I reject substitutionary atonement unconditionally.
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#36
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 2, 2021 at 3:11 pm)Astreja Wrote:
(June 2, 2021 at 10:08 am)ronedee Wrote: ...No one human, is innocent of sin.

Sin is an imaginary crime against an imaginary victim.

Saying "I'm sorry, God; yes, I accept Jesus" does nothing to resolve a problem caused in the real world against a real victim.  You must apologize and make restitution for what you've done, and the person you harmed is fully within their rights to refuse to forgive you.

I reject substitutionary atonement unconditionally.

You are looking at it through a human perspective. It's not to say, we don't owe each other repentance & reparations. But, in God's eyes none of us are innocent.

So we can all be put in the category of "sinner". And to say otherwise is...well....being a sinner.

We're not substituting anything. Atonement for our sins before God, is accepting His payment for our sins. He paid the price with us (death of the body).
And that goes along with His Love for us, and our Love for Him and each other. Of course most can't wrap their heads around that. Even
believers have trouble understanding. And, that was my question years ago in my heart! Why?

Unfortunately, all had to go down for freewill to exist. God didn't want robots. He wanted His creation to be independent and Love Him
for the sake of His gifts of Love & Life. Which most could care about. Just look around? The moment before us, is all that matters.

Unfortunately again... a lot of people can't get past the "atonement" & "blood sacrifice" part, and feel that IF He exists, why didn't he figure out another plan?
And that's a good question.

The way I see it is: What we do here? We will do there...wherever He exists. And this is the proving grounds for it. We, humans & God, will never have to 
look back. Because our Faith in Him, through all of this "doubt & fear" will be enough for Him to share with us His Glory & Kingdom unequivocally!
And... He lived here with us! Loved us and suffered death. A pretty bad death. But, again that's NOT payment enough for all the babies w/ brain cancer.

Faith is huge in all this! Obviously. And doing His Will, is simple enough. Basically; treating each other with Love & Kindness. Which expels the 
theory of; there are thousands of gods! Will people all go to hell who don't believe in yours. Jesus said, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.
I didn't hear anything about knowing Him. But, plenty about doing what is right! And to Love one another, which was what His Father wanted
us to do! And to keep His commandments, which are pretty much universal, common sense doctrine.

So, yeah it makes perfect sense to me. YMMV
Quis ut Deus?
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#37
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 2, 2021 at 3:11 pm)Astreja Wrote:
(June 2, 2021 at 10:08 am)ronedee Wrote: ...No one human, is innocent of sin.

Sin is an imaginary crime against an imaginary victim.
do you people think anything through or do you just espouse without question little zinngers youve heard in the past?

So murder is an imaginary crime against an imaginary victim? stealing? again according to you another imaginary crime with an imaginary victim? what about lying by saying you saw your neighbor kill someone when they did not?
Quote:Saying "I'm sorry, God; yes, I accept Jesus" does nothing to resolve a problem caused in the real world against a real victim.
again, think things through.. Does the bible say repenting to God and accepting jesus is supposed to fix or bring back a murder victim? no.. then why would you assume that it did?
what strawman argument do you have that allows you to assign magical powers to repentance that 1) the bible does not claim. 2)then allows you to persecute the bible/bible followers for the magical powers YOU added to the scripture?

 
Quote:You must apologize and make restitution for what you've done, and the person you harmed is fully within their rights to refuse to forgive you.

I reject substitutionary atonement unconditionally.
forgiveness works on two levels. what you owe God in the way of sin debt and what others owe you in the way of sin debt. God points out in a parable that the debt owed by you to him will never exceed the sin debt people owe you.

Therefore if God gives you the opportunity to eliminate your sin debt to him. he then in turn expect you to also forgive any sin debt owed by others to you. otherwise if you can not forgive it does not matter what you believe about substitutionary atonement. as your sins will not be forgiven.



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#38
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 3, 2021 at 11:23 am)Drich Wrote: forgiveness works on two levels. what you owe God in the way of sin debt and what others owe you in the way of sin debt. God points out in a parable that the debt owed by you to him will never exceed the sin debt people owe you.

I owe nothing to your imaginary friend.  If it thinks otherwise, it is free to come collect in person.

(June 2, 2021 at 3:11 pm)Astreja Wrote: Sin is an imaginary crime against an imaginary victim.

Saying "I'm sorry, God; yes, I accept Jesus" does nothing to resolve a problem caused in the real world against a real victim.  You must apologize and make restitution for what you've done, and the person you harmed is fully within their rights to refuse to forgive you.

I reject substitutionary atonement unconditionally.

(June 3, 2021 at 11:19 am)ronedee Wrote: You are looking at it through a human perspective. It's not to say, we don't owe each other repentance & reparations. But, in God's eyes none of us are innocent.

So we can all be put in the category of "sinner". And to say otherwise is...well....being a sinner.

I don't give a flying fuck what your god allegedly thinks, as I believe it to be no more than a human invention.  People behave badly sometimes, but "sin" is a fictional ailment.

(June 3, 2021 at 11:19 am)ronedee Wrote: We're not substituting anything. Atonement for our sins before God, is accepting His payment for our sins. He paid the price with us (death of the body). And that goes along with His Love for us, and our Love for Him and each other. Of course most can't wrap their heads around that. Even believers have trouble understanding. And, that was my question years ago in my heart! Why?

No one pays my debts.  I do not consent to anyone dying in my place for any reason whatsoever.  Salvation rejected unconditionally.

(June 3, 2021 at 11:19 am)ronedee Wrote: Unfortunately, all had to go down for freewill to exist. God didn't want robots. He wanted His creation to be independent and Love Him for the sake of His gifts of Love & Life. Which most could care about. Just look around? The moment before us, is all that matters.

Bullshit. I cannot love your god - even if it did exist, its behaviour as described in the Bible is unspeakably barbaric.

(June 3, 2021 at 11:19 am)ronedee Wrote: Faith is huge in all this!

And this is another reason that I will not be worshipping your god -- I have never possessed religious faith, as I cannot sufficiently suspend disbelief to the extent required to have faith in your god.

Or any other gods, for that matter. My brain just doesn't do religious faith. Throughout my life, even when I did try, the part of my mind that goes "Yeah, riiiiight..." predominated. I'm done trying, especially now that I'm an agnostic atheist. I see no benefit in wasting my time trying to cultivate a mindset that my unconscious mind clearly will not accept.
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#39
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 3, 2021 at 11:19 am)ronedee Wrote: He wanted His creation to be independent and Love Him for the sake of His gifts of Love & Life.

Yet another fool who thinks, arrogantly enough, that they know the mind of God. You believe God wanted such and so. But do you actually know what he did or did not want? No. You're just projecting your beliefs onto God. For all we know, God didn't want us to be free, either he had no choice, or we're not free, or some other possibility. All you're doing is asserting your religious dogma as truth because you're an unreasoning twat. You have no evidence for your specific god. Nor for free will. You have a belief that you want others to adopt because you're, again, an unreasoning twat. I at least have some evidence for that proposition, whereas you have none for yours.
[Image: Fenrir-sign.jpg]
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#40
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 3, 2021 at 11:34 am)Angrboda Wrote:
(June 3, 2021 at 11:19 am)ronedee Wrote: He wanted His creation to be independent and Love Him for the sake of His gifts of Love & Life.

Yet another fool who thinks, arrogantly enough, that they know the mind of God.  You believe God wanted such and so.  But do you actually know what he did or did not want?  No.  You're just projecting your beliefs onto God.  For all we know, God didn't want us to be free, either he had no choice, or we're not free, or some other possibility.  All you're doing is asserting your religious dogma as truth because you're an unreasoning twat.  You have no evidence for your specific god.  Nor for free will.  You have a belief that you want others to adopt because you're, again, an unreasoning twat.  I at least have some evidence for that proposition, whereas you have none for yours.

Obviously, you've never read the Bible. Nothing I said was outside of it. It's all there, try picking up a copy! It's the most printed book in history!
Quis ut Deus?
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