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Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
#21
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(May 27, 2021 at 12:49 pm)Drich Wrote:
(May 26, 2021 at 8:48 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: -and yet you believe the fairy tales they created and promoted.  Good for you.

sorry sport no. we have the much earlier works/written record of the greeks. 

Another fantasy.  Everything in new magic book was written and compiled between the first and fourth centuries ad.  You have no "earlier written works"....by anyone - because there were no christians.  It was, as a point of historical fact no matter how much shame you have for your religions catholic roots, the rcc that produced the myths that protestants still, to this day, believe. Ungrateful bunch of pricks, if you ask me.

Just imagine if paul™ hadn't realized he could make a killing if he focused on the audience with the cash to spare? You'd be here babbling about the great god mars or some other such horseshit.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#22
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(May 27, 2021 at 1:30 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: [quote='Drich' pid='2040092' dateline='1622134179']
we do not even accept all the books they do as some can not be sourced outside of the church.

Your own books are by anonymous writers.  [/quote] that's not true. it is true of the vulgate/latin bible but not of the kine greek. John identifies himself as does luke mat and mark. paul goes on to write 2/3 of the new testament, and the remaining 1/3 are also identified. that is one of the reasons the books of the holy bible omit books of the vulgate authorship and pravaunaunce is important.
Quote:Why would they be any more authoritative than those of the RC church?
[/quote aside from authorship and pravaunaunce, the books content is a map to find God. if you follow the book you will be literally sat before god. the vulgate isa book that gives the church and it's leadership power. follow the book be subservient to the church.
[quote]
I just don't understand why people believe that an all-powerful God would put the only chronicle of His actions on Earth in the hands of unknown writers,
because smart guy there were no 'known writers' in a society with a 4% literacy rate. learn to compare apples to apples rather than take your society's standards and value it has on the written word and try and apply it to a society who did not trust the written word nor the few who translated it. 2000+ years ago a man's word was all he was it was his bond/ability to make a living. people put far more trust in hearing what a trusted man said over that of something that a man said another man heard interpreted written down perhaps in one language, given to another man in another language had him read man 2 version or dialect of a second language, translate this second language for himself make adjustment for region and dialect, and then hope and pray he did not have a bias while he read this message out loud. That's why God gave his words to no bodies, as they were trusted men first then made famous by his words.

Quote: who write with the same style and mythological background as other writers of the time.
that's another lie of ignorance. As christianity was completely counter cultural to what the jews wanted or expected. remember the whole of jerusalem was being occupied by Rome. the jews and their teacher and prophets were all looking for a warrior to take on rome and free them from roman rule. this savior thy were looking for was fortold and was called the messiah. a warrior priest from the tribe of david. what they god was hippy/live and let live/turn the other cheek jesus who says don't fight against the government and pay your taxes which the jews hated and ultimately killed him for. So no, nothing jesus taught was like any other religion at that time.
Quote:  And then, some future group of people "decide" which are the "real" chronicles of God, and which aren't, and then expect everyone else to worship the cobbled together bible.
again the bible is a map. people follow it and literally in this life time find God. that is why people follow this bible. and before you lie and say other people of other religions do the same... there is a problem with that. in that according to their holy books they being regular people can't. even in the RC church God does not speak to people one on one. only the pope can have an audience with God. Muslims and jews are the same but only a high prophet or priest have direct access to God. so if anyone from another religion says their religion sat them before God they are claiming to be a prophet by their own religious standards. Only the Holy Bible and the God of the holy bible grant you an audience with God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGdO54_onsw&t=19s

(May 27, 2021 at 5:55 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: [quote='Drich' pid='2040092' dateline='1622134179']

sorry sport no. we have the much earlier works/written record of the greeks. 

Another fantasy.  Everything in new magic book was written and compiled between the first and fourth centuries ad.  You have no "earlier written works"....by anyone - because there were no christians.  It was, as a point of historical fact no matter how much shame you have for your religions catholic roots, the rcc that produced the myths that protestants still, to this day, believe.  Ungrateful bunch of pricks, if you ask me.  

Just imagine if paul™ hadn't realized he could make a killing if he focused on the audience with the cash to spare?  You'd be here babbling about the great god mars or some other such horseshit.
[/quote]

 the vulgate that is being used (and changed currently in the RC church) was compiled in the 16th century.... by your own admission the koine greek bible which our 'protestant bibles' are a direct contextual translation of are from those 1st to 3rd translations yu mentioned. so yeah that 1300 years older than the current addition of the vulgate.
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#23
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(May 23, 2021 at 6:21 am)Five Wrote: Jesus supposedly suffered for our sins. Victims of sinners suffer from the same sins that Jesus already suffered for. The sinner is often unrepentant, feels no guilt and doesn't suffer. So what's the point of Jesus' suffering if the victim also suffers but not the sinner?

Why wasn't someone sent to take on the suffering of the victims? That would be nice. It seems though that the victims have to suffer for sins that Jesus already suffered for. It's like the sin is double dipping.

I remember reading about Polly Klass years ago. She was a 12 year old girl who was kidnapped from her house while she was having a slumber party. Richard Allen Davis, who had been in and out of jail several times, broke into her house at night and kidnapped, abused and murdered her. Polly and her family suffered greatly for what he did. He is still alive and unrepentant in jail.

If Jesus already suffered for what Davis did, why did poor Poly also have to suffer? Why didn't Jesus suffer for Polly? The only person who didn't suffer was Davis. He probably regrets being in jail but not what he did to Polly. If he has a chance to repent in the next life, why did Poly and her family have to pay the price when Jesus already took care of it. Makes no sense.

A hero will throw him/herself in front of a bullet for a friend. The hero suffers a bullet wound but the friend is saved. Only one person is hurt.

Jesus took a bullet for us all but we are still shot and suffer from the same bullet. Jesus suffered and we suffer. What's the point of all the suffering? So the shooter can go to heaven? What about the victims? Who suffers for them?

Discussing the flawed logic of any holy writing in human history worldwide is like arguing plot holes in Hollywood movies.

Humans make shit up. The only difference beween the world's holy writings of any religion, and Hollywood movies, is that entertainment is accepted as such, and religion is fantasy falsely argued as fact even to a polictical scale. 

Give any religious follower of any religion  the time, they will always make the argument for excuses for fucking up or being the real victim. 

The real argument is that our species is flawed, and religion has nothing to do with that reality. There are always points where one can say "I made a mistake" and other times they will falsely play victim. There is not one individual, not one group, not one label in our species history that can't fall for flawed logic. 
Luke and Obi Wan forgiving Anikan at the end of  "Retern Of The Jedi" is an appealing motif of forgiveness. But most sane people I know in reality would not forgive Hitler, and rightfully so. So how is it Darth/Anikan works in a mere movie? How is it the God of the Bible gets away with condoning the infanticide of the firstborn Egyptians males, and the genocide of the flood? 

I've long since found arguments,  such as yours, in the OP superfluous. There is not one religion in the world, that does not have memebers that claim a patent on human morality, but yet at the same time, there is also not one nation on the face of the planet, that does not have both hospitals or prisons.
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#24
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(May 28, 2021 at 1:47 pm)Drich Wrote: again the bible is a map. people follow it and literally in this life time find God. that is why people follow this bible. and before you lie and say other people of other religions do the same... there is a problem with that. in that according to their holy books they being regular people can't. even in the RC church God does not speak to people one on one. only the pope can have an audience with God. Muslims and jews are the same but only a high prophet or priest have direct access to God. so if anyone from another religion says their religion sat them before God they are claiming to be a prophet by their own religious standards. Only the Holy Bible and the God of the holy bible grant you an audience with God.

You've been corrected on this several times. Either you've got some condition which makes you forget, or you're just a stupid liar.
[Image: Fenrir-sign.jpg]
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#25
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(May 28, 2021 at 2:35 pm)Angrboda Wrote:
(May 28, 2021 at 1:47 pm)Drich Wrote: again the bible is a map. people follow it and literally in this life time find God. that is why people follow this bible. and before you lie and say other people of other religions do the same... there is a problem with that. in that according to their holy books they being regular people can't. even in the RC church God does not speak to people one on one. only the pope can have an audience with God. Muslims and jews are the same but only a high prophet or priest have direct access to God. so if anyone from another religion says their religion sat them before God they are claiming to be a prophet by their own religious standards. Only the Holy Bible and the God of the holy bible grant you an audience with God.

You've been corrected on this several times.  Either you've got some condition which makes you forget, or you're just a stupid liar.

No kidding. The game "Monopoly" has rules, or a "map" too. But it hardly represents economics in a global reality.
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#26
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(May 28, 2021 at 1:47 pm)Drich Wrote:
Quote:Another fantasy.  Everything in new magic book was written and compiled between the first and fourth centuries ad.  You have no "earlier written works"....by anyone - because there were no christians.  It was, as a point of historical fact no matter how much shame you have for your religions catholic roots, the rcc that produced the myths that protestants still, to this day, believe.  Ungrateful bunch of pricks, if you ask me.  

Just imagine if paul™ hadn't realized he could make a killing if he focused on the audience with the cash to spare?  You'd be here babbling about the great god mars or some other such horseshit.

 the vulgate that is being used (and changed currently in the RC church) was compiled in the 16th century.... by your own admission the koine greek bible which our 'protestant bibles' are a direct contextual translation of are from those 1st to 3rd translations yu mentioned. so yeah that 1300 years older than the current addition of the vulgate.

Yeah, as we all know, the rcc was founded in 1600ad.  You're the singlemost unserious christian I've ever had the misfortune to stumble across. You do the religion a disservice, and that takes effort. I've never been able to understand what it is that compels a person to bullshit other people about something they take to be sacred.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#27
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(May 28, 2021 at 2:35 pm)Angrboda Wrote:
(May 28, 2021 at 1:47 pm)Drich Wrote: again the bible is a map. people follow it and literally in this life time find God. that is why people follow this bible. and before you lie and say other people of other religions do the same... there is a problem with that. in that according to their holy books they being regular people can't. even in the RC church God does not speak to people one on one. only the pope can have an audience with God. Muslims and jews are the same but only a high prophet or priest have direct access to God. so if anyone from another religion says their religion sat them before God they are claiming to be a prophet by their own religious standards. Only the Holy Bible and the God of the holy bible grant you an audience with God.

You've been corrected on this several times.  Either you've got some condition which makes you forget, or you're just a stupid liar.

sweetheart a correction without proper citation is not a correction why cant you understand that?

(May 28, 2021 at 2:38 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(May 28, 2021 at 2:35 pm)Angrboda Wrote: You've been corrected on this several times.  Either you've got some condition which makes you forget, or you're just a stupid liar.

No kidding. The game "Monopoly" has rules, or a "map" too. But it hardly represents economics in a global reality.

see ang-r.. i'm sure you think this a correction as it poo poos on what i said. this is not a correction but mere negative commentary as it does not factually/truthfully position to refute anything i said.. just an observation about monopoly and current economics. which has nothing to contextually do with the subject or my content. again this is why so many of you can 'refute' everything i say several times and i just keep going with the points i've made.

(May 28, 2021 at 2:50 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(May 28, 2021 at 1:47 pm)Drich Wrote:  the vulgate that is being used (and changed currently in the RC church) was compiled in the 16th century.... by your own admission the koine greek bible which our 'protestant bibles' are a direct contextual translation of are from those 1st to 3rd translations yu mentioned. so yeah that 1300 years older than the current addition of the vulgate.

Yeah, as we all know, the rcc was founded in 1600ad.    You're the singlemost unserious christian I've ever had the misfortune to stumble across.  You do the religion a disservice, and that takes effort.  I've never been able to understand what it is that compels a person to bullshit other people about something they take to be sacred.

it's called the bible sport. what i do is modeled by christ himself. Christ shat on the religion of his day, to the point where they killed them. The reason he can do this is because there is a great divide in the mind's eye of God between heart centered worship of him and religion. God hates religion. Paul also modeled this behavior. read the book of galatians basically called everyone in that church a fool for falling into mindless religious practice. What i identify is religiously supported material/doctrine that is not biblically modeled or supported. and take that apart. like praying to saints. when jesus himself says only pray to God. or when they say saturday is the only day to worship or you should take sunday off. I point to the passage that says one may treat one day more holy than another, some may worship a moon festival one may not one may worship the sabbath another treat everyday like the sabbath, what ever you do do it to god. all of these things change in the vulgate that again doesn't get put into circulation till the 1600s. so there is 1500 years of worship prior and all the protestant worship after ( several hundred years) that people maintain and worship scrip[ture as our oldest manuscripts allow, yet you tout me for my worship because it differs from a few hundred years of religion created by the dark ages church. That i am not a serious christian because i do not kneel at an alter that you yourself have determined there is no God? why would someone serious and truthful to themselves worship a god that is completely or near absent?
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#28
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 1, 2021 at 11:56 am)Drich Wrote:
(May 28, 2021 at 2:35 pm)Angrboda Wrote: You've been corrected on this several times.  Either you've got some condition which makes you forget, or you're just a stupid liar.

sweetheart a correction without proper citation is not a correction why cant you understand that?

No citation is needed when testifying to what I've personally witnessed. Or for things that are common knowledge. Where's your citation saying that I need a citation? Huh, dumbass?

All these cutesy epithets alongside such moronic drivel just makes you look even more stupid.

This nonsense about the lack of citation is just you trying to cover your ass. It's made up. It's just your usual pulling shit out of your ass.

So which is it, do you have a condition which makes you forget, or are you just a stupid liar?

Or are you just going to silently crawl away like you do every time I show you being stupid?
[Image: Fenrir-sign.jpg]
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#29
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 1, 2021 at 12:26 pm)Angrboda Wrote:
(June 1, 2021 at 11:56 am)Drich Wrote: sweetheart a correction without proper citation is not a correction why cant you understand that?

No citation is needed when testifying to what I've personally witnessed.
what have you witnessed that you used as an argument?

Quote:Or for things that are common knowledge.
sweetheart an argument that defaults to common knowledge is a logical fallacy.
https://www.developgoodhabits.com/appeal-common-sense/
Quote: Where's your citation saying that I need a citation?   Huh, dumbass?
burden of proof fallacy, states the burden lies with the one making the claim, once i do that the it is on you when you challenge the claim and materials provided.
in this case i referenced the church timeline and the translation timeline of the bible. when the koine bible was written and established and when the vulgate was written and established and the discrepancies between the two.

if you want to challenge any of that then the burden of proof shifts to you.
https://fallacyinlogic.com/burden-of-pro...-examples/

Quote:All these cutesy epithets alongside such moronic drivel just makes you look even more stupid.
actually sportress it makes... well you know what it makes you when i set you up with an easy answer then provide several sources to back my play. otherwise you would not be so desperate to try and shame me into stopping. if and when ever you want to stop the name calling just ask.. or set the example. but if you want to be call a fool and made to look like one keep trying to best me.
Quote:This nonsense about the lack of citation is just you trying to cover your ass.  It's made up.  It's just your usual pulling shit out of your ass.  
sorry slow mo but it is how logical throught works.. i know where you source your information and new as a hard left liberal won't allow truth and facts to enter into a heart felt conversation, but here in the land of truth and logic providing a citation when asked is all apart of the gig.

i honestly never thought i would have to defend the need to call for a citation to be called a liar when i tell someone it is required for you to provide one. a few of you older atheist gotta gob smacked as well. as you use to be the torch bearers of facts and logic and now one of yours is mocking people who ask for it.
So which is it, do you have a condition which makes you forget, or are you just a stupid liar?  
Quote:Or are you just going to silently crawl away like you do every time I show you being stupid?

i stop a topic when i fell you have been verbally beaten to the point where you can no longer defend your position topically. when i strip your rhyme or reason to the point where you can only personally attack like a cornered primate, then for me it is time to stop. i have no desire to destroy anyone to the point where they are afraid to respond to me. which i get make my restraint look like weakness to the.. slower than average members but if this is what it takes to keep a dialog open then i am willing to play that roll as long as you need me too.

like for instance you seem to be running out of relevant/topical steam. so it seems its time to let you go an lick your wounds
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#30
RE: Why did Jesus suffer for sinners and not victims
(June 1, 2021 at 1:05 pm)Drich Wrote:
(June 1, 2021 at 12:26 pm)Angrboda Wrote: No citation is needed when testifying to what I've personally witnessed.
what have you witnessed that you used as an argument?

I referred you to my own beliefs as a Hindu, as well as to things that other believers have told me. That you don't even remember what I said is obvious.


(June 1, 2021 at 1:05 pm)Drich Wrote:
(June 1, 2021 at 12:26 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Or for things that are common knowledge.
sweetheart an argument that defaults to common knowledge is a logical fallacy.
https://www.developgoodhabits.com/appeal-common-sense/

An appeal to common sense and an appeal to common knowledge are different things. I don't need to cite a source for a claim that is common knowledge.

You can't even get the most basic of distinctions correct.


(June 1, 2021 at 1:05 pm)Drich Wrote:
(June 1, 2021 at 12:26 pm)Angrboda Wrote:  Where's your citation saying that I need a citation?   Huh, dumbass?
burden of proof fallacy, states the burden lies with the one making the claim, once i do that the it is on you when you challenge the claim and materials provided.
in this case i referenced the church timeline and the translation timeline of the bible. when the koine bible was written and established and when the vulgate was written and established and the discrepancies between the two.

if you want to challenge any of that then the burden of proof shifts to you.
https://fallacyinlogic.com/burden-of-pro...-examples/

I don't know what this has to do with anything. You claimed that I needed a citation for my correction to be valid. Where's your citation for that?


(June 1, 2021 at 1:05 pm)Drich Wrote:
(June 1, 2021 at 12:26 pm)Angrboda Wrote: All these cutesy epithets alongside such moronic drivel just makes you look even more stupid.
actually sportress it makes... well you know what it makes you when i set you up with an easy answer then provide several sources to back my play. otherwise you would not be so desperate to try and shame me into stopping. if and when ever you want to stop the name calling just ask.. or set the example. but if you want to be call a fool and made to look like one keep trying to best me.

I'm not desperate to shame you. To borrow from Boru's quote, winning an argument with someone stupid is impossible. But that you seem desperate to shame others seems rather plausible with all these names. Why don't you call me a dragon lady again? You are a joke. I challenge you for the lulz.


(June 1, 2021 at 1:05 pm)Drich Wrote:
(June 1, 2021 at 12:26 pm)Angrboda Wrote: This nonsense about the lack of citation is just you trying to cover your ass.  It's made up.  It's just your usual pulling shit out of your ass.  
sorry slow mo but it is how logical throught works.. i know where you source your information and new as a hard left liberal won't allow truth and facts to enter into a heart felt conversation, but here in the land of truth and logic providing a citation when asked is all apart of the gig.

i honestly never thought i would have to defend the need to call for a citation to be called a liar when i tell someone it is required for you to provide one. a few of you older atheist gotta gob smacked as well. as you use to be the torch bearers of facts and logic and now one of yours is mocking people who ask for it.
So which is it, do you have a condition which makes you forget, or are you just a stupid liar?

Try not to drown guzzling all that Kool-aid. I produce references when needed or requested. Neither was the case here. Just a dumbfuck thinking he had a gotcha on me.


(June 1, 2021 at 1:05 pm)Drich Wrote:
(June 1, 2021 at 12:26 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Or are you just going to silently crawl away like you do every time I show you being stupid?

i stop a topic when i fell you have been verbally beaten to the point where you can no longer defend your position topically. when i strip your rhyme or reason to the point where you can only personally attack like a cornered primate, then for me it is time to stop. i have no desire to destroy anyone to the point where they are afraid to respond to me. which i get make my restraint look like weakness to the.. slower than average members but if this is what it takes to keep a dialog open then i am willing to play that roll as long as you need me too.

like for instance you seem to be running out of relevant/topical steam. so it seems its time to let you go an lick your wounds

So you're going to make lame excuses for your failure. I feel sorry for your mom, but then, apples seldom fall far from the tree. Your mom was probably stupid too.
[Image: Fenrir-sign.jpg]
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