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Free Will Debate
#21
RE: Free Will Debate
(November 23, 2021 at 4:21 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Free will cannot exist absolutely unless one is willing to say that all epileptics are choosing to have their seizures or that Alzheimer's patients are choosing to forget the names of their grandchildren.

This is absolutely silly.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem




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#22
RE: Free Will Debate
@ Brian.

We all qualify as outside frames of reference for each other. It actually should be pretty easy to demonstrate this free will business. The trouble is that when we go looking we find predisposition, circumstance, hard wiring, and conditioned response.

The space for free will, if it does exist in the human animal, seems exceedingly small.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#23
RE: Free Will Debate
Adults (and, to a lesser degree children IMO) need be held responsible for our actions, including by ourselves, or else bad behaviour would doubtless run riot like wildfire and society as we know it would descend into total anarchy. Is there free will? Probably not, unless there's some voodoo magic sky leprechaun pulling the strings of existence. That in no way affects the first sentence of this post however. Is it the apotheosis of irony that we rational atheistic ground apes need "live this lie?" Almost certainly. Laughter...that's the answer. Have a nice day.
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#24
RE: Free Will Debate
Not having a free will doesn’t prevent us from holding people accountable. Nor do we need to live the lie to do so. Frankly, a better understanding of human behavior…say…in the case of incompetents, has helped us to hold people accountable in ways that aren’t pure punitive vengeance seeking.

We may fine a person for stealing a loaf of bread when they’re starving….but we don’t cut off their hands. It won’t stop them from committing another crime of desperation anyway.

The fantasy of crime being an issue of bad people freely willing this or that has been a disaster, historically speaking.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#25
RE: Free Will Debate
(November 24, 2021 at 7:26 am)brewer Wrote:
(November 23, 2021 at 4:21 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Free will cannot exist absolutely unless one is willing to say that all epileptics are choosing to have their seizures or that Alzheimer's patients are choosing to forget the names of their grandchildren.

This is absolutely silly.

Why?
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
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#26
RE: Free Will Debate
(November 24, 2021 at 8:16 am)Jehanne Wrote:
(November 24, 2021 at 7:26 am)brewer Wrote: This is absolutely silly.

Why?

Because epilepsy and dementia are disease/disorder states, independent of conscious thought. Could you argue that there is no absolute free will because of metastatic brain cancer? It effects the brain also.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem




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#27
RE: Free Will Debate
It's free will when I make the choice and it is determinism when the choice was not mine. Once I figure out who I am, that first sentence will make sense.
<insert profound quote here>
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#28
RE: Free Will Debate
(November 24, 2021 at 8:16 am)Jehanne Wrote:
(November 24, 2021 at 7:26 am)brewer Wrote: This is absolutely silly.

Why?

free will is not omnipotent will.    Is an epileptic free to will him/herself to stop having seizures even if such will does not actually affect his/her actual seizures?   If so, then that implies room for free will without implying the will found within is actually free.
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#29
RE: Free Will Debate
(November 24, 2021 at 7:32 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: @ Brian.

We all qualify as outside frames of reference for each other.  It actually should be pretty easy to demonstrate this free will business.  The trouble is that when we go looking we find predisposition, circumstance, hard wiring, and conditioned response.

The space for free will, if it does exist in the human animal, seems exceedingly small.

But we’re all in the same frame of reference regarding the Does-free-will-exist question. Expecting that to determine the answers is like expecting the rats in a maze to have a confab as to the meaning of the experiment. It’s not possible for us to determine if we’re even in the maze at all. It would take a rat standing outside the maze to make that realization.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#30
RE: Free Will Debate
(November 24, 2021 at 11:48 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(November 24, 2021 at 7:32 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: @ Brian.

We all qualify as outside frames of reference for each other.  It actually should be pretty easy to demonstrate this free will business.  The trouble is that when we go looking we find predisposition, circumstance, hard wiring, and conditioned response.

The space for free will, if it does exist in the human animal, seems exceedingly small.

But we’re all in the same frame of reference regarding the Does-free-will-exist question. Expecting that to determine the answers is like expecting the rats in a maze to have a confab as to the meaning of the experiment. It’s not possible for us to determine if we’re even in the maze at all. It would take a rat standing outside the maze to make that realization.

Boru

They are actually aware of what is going on:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_C._Tolman
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
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