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Free Will Debate
#81
RE: Free Will Debate
(November 27, 2021 at 1:36 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote:
(November 27, 2021 at 1:12 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I have no idea, it's a good question.  Nevertheless, instrumental to the concept of a free will..as opposed to a local will, or just a will - fullstop.....is the idea that we are meaningfully outside of the clockwork universe.  That, even if you were the same, and all things were the same, the issue of choosing a or b fundamentally hinges on a you free of that empowered to and capable of going down either causal path.

The conflict between the apparent ultimate impossibility of the existence of any will on the one hand, and the apparent benefit of assigning responsibility based on pretension of the existence of a free will on the other, require much more sophisticated assessment than it seems to generally be given.

(November 27, 2021 at 12:28 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Why would I make a different decision if *I* am exactly the same and *everything* else is also exactly the same?

The question is not why would you, but could you.

If I *could*, but never *do*, is it really possible?

I'm not even sure how to make sense of the phrase 'I could do different than I actually did'. If I run the scenario several times, then I am different each time, so I don't expect to make the same decision. But a singular event, I don't know what it even means to say it 'could' be different.

In what way is it 'possible'?

And if I am not involved through my beliefs, desires, etc, in what way is it *my* choice?

(November 27, 2021 at 1:12 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(November 27, 2021 at 12:28 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Why would I make a different decision if *I* am exactly the same and *everything* else is also exactly the same?

I have no idea, it's a good question.  Nevertheless, instrumental to the concept of a free will..as opposed to a local will, or just a will - fullstop.....is the idea that we are meaningfully outside of the clockwork universe.  That, even if you were the same, and all things were the same, the issue of choosing a or b fundamentally hinges on a you free of that empowered to and capable of going down either causal path.

So it really is an example of an uncaused cause?
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#82
RE: Free Will Debate
(November 27, 2021 at 4:58 pm)polymath257 Wrote:
(November 27, 2021 at 1:36 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: The conflict between the apparent ultimate impossibility of the existence of any will on the one hand, and the apparent benefit of assigning responsibility based on pretension of the existence of a free will on the other, require much more sophisticated assessment than it seems to generally be given.


The question is not why would you, but could you.

If I *could*, but never *do*, is it really possible?

I'm not even sure how to make sense of the phrase 'I could do different than I actually did'. If I run the scenario several times, then I am different each time, so I don't expect to make the same decision. But a singular event, I don't know what it even means to say it 'could' be different.

In what way is it 'possible'?

And if I am not involved through my beliefs, desires, etc, in what way is it *my* choice?

(November 27, 2021 at 1:12 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I have no idea, it's a good question.  Nevertheless, instrumental to the concept of a free will..as opposed to a local will, or just a will - fullstop.....is the idea that we are meaningfully outside of the clockwork universe.  That, even if you were the same, and all things were the same, the issue of choosing a or b fundamentally hinges on a you free of that empowered to and capable of going down either causal path.

So it really is an example of an uncaused cause?

I see no way to make sense of “I could do differently than I actually did” either.   The context in which such statements are usually made geneerally posits the scenario where  “I” am restored to mostly the same state as before I did anything, but with slight but significant bit of difference in knowledge.   Which means I could not do different except under different circumstance and inputs.   So it leads to the same conclusion:

Free will is nonsense because Will is nonsense.      There is only the egotistical, but inconsequential,  perception that I deserve credit for being part of some particular flows of events which I neither initiated nor have any ability to divert.
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#83
RE: Free Will Debate
(November 27, 2021 at 12:07 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Not necessarily uncaused (alot of people believed that it was a gift from the gods).  More that it was a potent and primary cause unto itself, meaningfully and fundamentally separate from the mundane types of causal chains involved in trees falling down or animals acting on instinct.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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