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RE: Free Will Debate
November 24, 2021 at 8:51 pm
(November 24, 2021 at 1:40 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (November 24, 2021 at 1:07 pm)Jehanne Wrote: They are actually aware of what is going on:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_C._Tolman
‘Aware of what is going on’ isn’t remotely the same as understanding the meaning of the experiment, and learning to run a maze isn’t the same as free will.
Boru
Rats laugh and giggle, and so yes, I do think that they have free will, and Tolman's experiments clearly, in my opinion, indicate that they are sentient and possess "free will" somewhat similar (albeit, in a very diminished manner) that we, as H. sapiens, also possess "free will".
I cannot prove any of this, and I am no expert, but, Toman's experiments are fascinating, and in my opinion, prove that the mind is simply what the brain does.
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RE: Free Will Debate
November 24, 2021 at 9:18 pm
If laughing and giggling and being sentient is what we mean by free will then it would be hard to argue we didn’t have that.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Free Will Debate
November 24, 2021 at 9:22 pm
This thread could easily be moved to the Adult Forum rather quickly.
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RE: Free Will Debate
November 25, 2021 at 2:42 am
(November 23, 2021 at 4:21 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Free will cannot exist absolutely unless one is willing to say that all epileptics are choosing to have their seizures or that Alzheimer's patients are choosing to forget the names of their grandchildren.
Well that's kind of stupid.... there is a world of difference between can't and won't.
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RE: Free Will Debate
November 25, 2021 at 1:01 pm
(November 25, 2021 at 2:42 am)slartibartfast Wrote: (November 23, 2021 at 4:21 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Free will cannot exist absolutely unless one is willing to say that all epileptics are choosing to have their seizures or that Alzheimer's patients are choosing to forget the names of their grandchildren.
Well that's kind of stupid.... there is a world of difference between can't and won't.
Please enlighten me further, and, I am happy to change my mind; have done it before.
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RE: Free Will Debate
November 25, 2021 at 2:54 pm
Well my reasoning is in order to be able to have free will over something, you need to have a genuine choice.
An person with epilepsy can't choose to not have seizures about as much as a person without arms can't choose to play the violin. The fact that epilepsy is something that affects the mind rather than the body has absolutely no bearing on their ability to choose the outcome.
It seemed like you were conflating mental illness or disease of the brain with a mind's choice as opposed to it having a physical root cause.
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RE: Free Will Debate
November 25, 2021 at 3:30 pm
(November 25, 2021 at 2:54 pm)slartibartfast Wrote: Well my reasoning is in order to be able to have free will over something, you need to have a genuine choice.
An person with epilepsy can't choose to not have seizures about as much as a person without arms can't choose to play the violin. The fact that epilepsy is something that affects the mind rather than the body has absolutely no bearing on their ability to choose the outcome.
It seemed like you were conflating mental illness or disease of the brain with a mind's choice as opposed to it having a physical root cause.
What is the cause of the mind's choice:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will
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RE: Free Will Debate
November 25, 2021 at 4:33 pm
(This post was last modified: November 25, 2021 at 4:33 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
There’s another example of a thing people take to be indicative of a free will. Changing our mind…however…when we find something compelling, is that a freely willed thing that we could just as soon ignore? Idk, I think people might contend that we do, but I wonder if that might be accounted for by things like presentment bias, dissonance, resolution.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Free Will Debate
November 25, 2021 at 9:31 pm
(November 24, 2021 at 8:37 pm)polymath257 Wrote: I think it is helpful in talking about free will to have some examples where we would definitely say that there is no free will and other cases where we are more likely to say that there is. Since free will seems to be about making choices, I will focus on that aspect of things.
As a first example, suppose that I step/am pushed/or otherwise exit a flying airplane well above the ground. At that point I do NOT have the 'choice' to not fall. Even if I *really* want to not fall, the inevitable fact will be that I will fall. I simply do not have 'free will' to choose to not fall.
On the other hand, taking the example above, if I am in a grocery store, I can choose to but one brand of OJ over another. But what does it mean to say that choice is 'free'? does it mean that in spite of all my experiences, preferences, and all other variables, I *could* choose the other brand? But why would I? If my experiences, preferences, and tastes are not enough to make a free choice in line with them, what is the value of 'free will'? At that point, it doesn't sound, to me, like a 'free' choice, but rather that it is an arbitrary choice.
Going further, I would say that the choice is *mine* if the primary determiners of the outcome are, in fact, my preferences, my experiences, my emotions, and my internal state as opposed to something external to me being the primary causal factor for the following events (as it would be for falling from a plane). And having 'free will' would mean that the choice was *mine* in that sense.
What bothers people about this notion of free will is that those preferences, emotions, and experiences might be determined in ways that 'don't involve me'. but, of course, the fact that I have certain preferences is, at least partially, determined by my past experiences and my reactions to those past experiences. That also seems perfectly good and reasonable. I would not want to have my preferences NOT determined by my past experiences and reactions! That would seem to be very 'un-free'!
Ultimately, this seems to be compatible with determinism and materialism. The choices are *mine*: they happen in my brain, based on my experiences, my memories, and my preferences. Those preferences are determined my my previous experiences and how I reacted to them. Even in a deterministic system, I *am* the one 'making choices', even if those choices are determined: they are determined by who I am and how I see the world.
Unless, of course, I jump out of an airplane without a parachute.
But your preferences, your emotions, your experiences and your internal states all didn’t exist until you did, and all of them only exist in the manner they do solely because of factors with are all ultimates external to you. so how are these “internal” processes in any way whatsoever ultimately less external than any of what you would call “external” factors?
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RE: Free Will Debate
November 26, 2021 at 5:41 pm
It may be useful for some to look into Daniel Dennett's writings on the subject. I saw a talk he did on YouTube, and I found it hard to disagree with.
This link tries to critique Dennett, but I think it comes across as affirming Dennett as correct instead.
https://www.atlassociety.org/post/the-do...el-dennett
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